VIC Partner's Ex Refusing Mediation - What to Do?

[Step2Three]

Hi stepmum. Trust me when I say I know how you feel- alot of what you've said is so much like what my husband and I have been dealing with the last 2 years.

A few thoughts based on that experience (this is jsut my opinion, not professional advice):

1) sammy is correct- no amount of mediation or court will stop a twit being a twit. Nothing you do will change her behavior. Best you can do is find ways to make your peace with it and operate around it. You could consider some sessions with a counsellor to see how to help yourselves in this area. Also courses about parenting after separation could help (e.g. here in WA Anglicare run "Mums and Dads Forever", which has some sessions on this theme).

2) Do what you can to limit exposure to the ex. Our life got easier when pick ups and drop offs started happening at school, rather than her house (ok, it got easier after she got over complaining that 3-4pm was "her time"). If you can make that happen, do it. The silver lining coming out of the otherwise horrible experience of being slapped with a false Family Violence Restraining Order is learning how little interaction is needed to maintain enough contact to manage (parallel) shared parenting. That goes for messages and email as much as physical contact. Also helps reduce exposing the kids to that conflict.

3) I would proceed with your application (assuming there are not existing orders) but keep your expectations in check. Don't expect a swift resolution and do expect things to get worse before they get better. Assuming it's an application for orders- what would you be looking for? Its true having orders is not a guarantee that people will follow them (and the enforcement of them is pretty poor) but if there is a framework that both parties understand and they can follow it, there's less room for conflict. It's working for us (so far, it's early days), but the effectiveness of orders probably depends if there is a good reason for the parties to comply, so think about your specific issues what might be driving her choices to see if you think this will help.

4) You will need to learn to stand up to the bullying, but at the same time learn which battles are worth fighting. After many years of abuse from this woman while in the relationship, my husband felt very strongly about having to stand up to every shot she fired, I think out of feeling shame at having been bullied for so long before. Fight for the ones that matter and make a difference to you and the kids. You might have to get creative-to give an example from Christmas last year, ex would not agree for the kids to be at our house at the same time as their elder sister, who we also have shared care of. Neither mother would consider changing for the other so we turned it to our advantage and had the whole family over the weekend before (something we couldn't have done on Christmas Day regardless) and had a great, WHOLE day with all of the family together. Kids had a great time, as did we.

5) The worst part is how powerless you feel when then kids are stuck in it. The interrogations. The guilt trips ("you don't sound like you miss mummy!". The threats ("Don't you dare give your father any notes from school- they're for me! You'll regret it if you do"). And the insults (calling a 6 year old a "f**king little mole" or a "selfish b*tch"). Our experience is this kind of abuse is not far enough up the priority list for external action to be taken, or at least not until the kids are broken by it. You can't change her behavior. The only thing you can do is try and help the kids develop skills to deal with it- think anti-bullying skills, reinforcing a positive self-image (to contrast the negative messages they get). The Protective Behaviors program was recommended to us- though not directly for this sort of abuse, their message of "everyone has a right to feel safe" and getting kids thinking about having a network of people they trust that can help if things escalate. Focus on what you can do for them with whatever time you get. I think our kids can already see that alot of what they're told about their dad and I doesn't correlate with what they see and experience for themselves and they're engaging less and less in the excesses of their mother's behavior.

Wishing you and your family the best of luck.

 

[stepmum]

Hi stepmum. Trust me when I say I know how you feel- alot of what you've said is so much like what my husband and I have been dealing with the last 2 years.

A few thoughts based on that experience (this is jsut my opinion, not professional advice):

1) sammy is correct- no amount of mediation or court will stop a twit being a twit. Nothing you do will change her behavior. Best you can do is find ways to make your peace with it and operate around it. You could consider some sessions with a counsellor to see how to help yourselves in this area. Also courses about parenting after separation could help (e.g. here in WA Anglicare run "Mums and Dads Forever", which has some sessions on this theme).

2) Do what you can to limit exposure to the ex. Our life got easier when pick ups and drop offs started happening at school, rather than her house (ok, it got easier after she got over complaining that 3-4pm was "her time"). If you can make that happen, do it. The silver lining coming out of the otherwise horrible experience of being slapped with a false Family Violence Restraining Order is learning how little interaction is needed to maintain enough contact to manage (parallel) shared parenting. That goes for messages and email as much as physical contact. Also helps reduce exposing the kids to that conflict.

3) I would proceed with your application (assuming there are not existing orders) but keep your expectations in check. Don't expect a swift resolution and do expect things to get worse before they get better. Assuming it's an application for orders- what would you be looking for? Its true having orders is not a guarantee that people will follow them (and the enforcement of them is pretty poor) but if there is a framework that both parties understand and they can follow it, there's less room for conflict. It's working for us (so far, it's early days), but the effectiveness of orders probably depends if there is a good reason for the parties to comply, so think about your specific issues what might be driving her choices to see if you think this will help.

4) You will need to learn to stand up to the bullying, but at the same time learn which battles are worth fighting. After many years of abuse from this woman while in the relationship, my husband felt very strongly about having to stand up to every shot she fired, I think out of feeling shame at having been bullied for so long before. Fight for the ones that matter and make a difference to you and the kids. You might have to get creative-to give an example from Christmas last year, ex would not agree for the kids to be at our house at the same time as their elder sister, who we also have shared care of. Neither mother would consider changing for the other so we turned it to our advantage and had the whole family over the weekend before (something we couldn't have done on Christmas Day regardless) and had a great, WHOLE day with all of the family together. Kids had a great time, as did we.

5) The worst part is how powerless you feel when then kids are stuck in it. The interrogations. The guilt trips ("you don't sound like you miss mummy!". The threats ("Don't you dare give your father any notes from school- they're for me! You'll regret it if you do"). And the insults (calling a 6 year old a "f**king little mole" or a "selfish b*tch"). Our experience is this kind of abuse is not far enough up the priority list for external action to be taken, or at least not until the kids are broken by it. You can't change her behavior. The only thing you can do is try and help the kids develop skills to deal with it- think anti-bullying skills, reinforcing a positive self-image (to contrast the negative messages they get). The Protective Behaviors program was recommended to us- though not directly for this sort of abuse, their message of "everyone has a right to feel safe" and getting kids thinking about having a network of people they trust that can help if things escalate. Focus on what you can do for them with whatever time you get. I think our kids can already see that alot of what they're told about their dad and I doesn't correlate with what they see and experience for themselves and they're engaging less and less in the excesses of their mother's behavior.

Wishing you and your family the best of luck.

Hi Step2Three

Thank you for your advice and it helps to know that unfortunately I am not alone as you feel like that sometimes. I am really struggling to deal with it and my partner after the last message 3 hrs ago feels like the worst father in the world because he could not go to their end of school presentations. She is trying to make him feel bad.

We have had a text everyday this week from her abusing him even when we haven't had the kids. She cannot go a day without contacting him. Before I came on the scene she never spoke to him or the kids unless she needed money from him or to look after the kids. We have been ignoring her and doing our best to protect the kids we do not contact her at all unless we have too. We do not speak rudely in front of the kids about her. I always ask how their mum is. You feel like you are going mad because you can do nothing about it. How do you talk to the children without it seeming like an interrogation or it going back to her and causing more drama. We are really concerned about her interrogation of the children.

Here is an example: I think she is mentally unstable. Out of the blue after her abusing him last night over a USB stick and then ringing him today to tell him she took their daughter to the doctor being all nice she sent the below. (The kids only said to me on Sunday night that I am their second mum melted my heart as I love them so much so keep that in mind when reading)

Just letting you know so you can't tell me you didn't (and because why should I be the only parent to carry all the burden of our childrens emotional welfare, school assembly's and presentations that you don't attend, dentist appt's and after school activities etc. you want half care then you can take half responsibility!) I've had both our children expressing a lot of angst in the last month about "wishing" we could get back together. Saying things like, we don't want any Christmas presents mummy we just want you and dad to get back together. I've reassured them several times that this won't be happening and I understand that this is hard on them. It's also why I want the Wed morning drop off changed to Tues night which is what I've been trying to do for awhile. I've also asked them if they've discussed any of this with you and they said no because dad has a girlfriend and your all we have left. So I'm arranging the necessary help to support me and the children with these challenges. What you should understand though, and this is THE most important part that you need to think about because obviously you haven't. Supporting their mother, supports them. Making things hard for me makes things hard for them. You want to add pressure to me, it inadvertently places pressure on them. You can continue the selfish approach if you want and be the "part time parent" when and how it suits you but I'm doing all the picking up of the pieces. I've tried to talk to you several times about our current arrangement not suiting me for months to which you refused to discuss and sorted legal action.

And expecting me to provide school uniform, lunch boxes the works for 3 years isn't fair either is it. You think you can float on my wings while I provide and it not go documented or noticed??

You didn't attend any school assembly or presentation to celebrate their end of year, they noticed that too, see my point?? Or will you continue to bury ya head in the sand and do what you two believe is best for the children? Because in my eyes you're way off track.

As you can imagine it is very untrue. The thing we don't know how to deal with is can or should we talk to the children? My partner is devastated that she is making them think like this of him. They adore him. Am I normal by saying that why does he need to go to a dentist appointment. If he was to turn up she would have a go at him.

I am looking into parenting program and counselling for both of us as well. I think our solicitor has a place we can go to.

Anymore advice would be great.

thank you again.

 

[sammy01]

1. Ok so you asked to have the kids because of a party.... STUPID. Sorry. But you can rely upon this chick to stuff you up. If you tell her that you want the kids because you've spent money booking photo's with santa, you can bet she will find it no end of fun to stop santa saying ho ho near the kids.
2. dump your solicitor - You are capable of preparing the documentation to file for court. You can't stand up in court, your partner will have to do that. But you can get all the way to the front door of the court (and further) without solicitors. But I would hold off on that for a while... Keep reading.
3. Pick apart the rant and find the stuff that matters... (I loved the bit about floating on her wings - it was beautiful... SHE IS A NUTTER)
4. So what is the bit about changing pick up's to Tuesday night? LOOK you're asking for our help right? Well I've asked you already what is the current set of arrangement? what has been happening for the last few weeks? if you have 50/50 care already, then I'd suggest you forget court and just get better at working with the nutter. Court is a place to go if the ex stops the kids visiting at all. But if you've got decent access then forget court.
5. Attend some stuff. Go to a school presentation thing. Tell her you'll book the kids into the dentist on your time...
6. PLAY THE GAME.... Seriously, when you change your approach / attitude instead of worrying about this stuff you can start living a bit more....
7. So let's look at her rant. She wants change over done on Tuesday? Can you do that from school? I reckon you suck it up.... Write to her...
Dear ex, you are awesome you are great. YOU ARE RIGHT. With that in mind I'd like to suggest that we write up consent orders and I will pay to have the court approve them. If you agree I'll get working on writing them up and I'll send them to you for approval. Can you please tell me of anything you would like included. I have taken your advice on board, I'm going to get the kids lunchboxes before school resumes and I'm going to make a point of attending more school functions. SUCK IT UP...
8. Suck it up. Yep wrote it twice. See right now you have nothing. Until you have consent orders you are at her mercy. So suck it up. BUT as soon as the ink dries on the court orders the game changes. The best way to get court orders is by consent.
Questions
1. What has the access been like for the last few weeks? consistent? in-consistent? how many nights? how is it arranged?
2. What does centrelink know? What sort of access do they think he has?
3. Is he paying child support? if so is it through CSA? how many nights care do they think he has?

 

[Scruff]

Can't believe you just told someone to dump their solicitor. Each to their own though.

 

[stepmum]

1. Ok so you asked to have the kids because of a party.... STUPID. Sorry. But you can rely upon this chick to stuff you up. If you tell her that you want the kids because you've spent money booking photo's with santa, you can bet she will find it no end of fun to stop santa saying ho ho near the kids.
2. dump your solicitor - You are capable of preparing the documentation to file for court. You can't stand up in court, your partner will have to do that. But you can get all the way to the front door of the court (and further) without solicitors. But I would hold off on that for a while... Keep reading.
3. Pick apart the rant and find the stuff that matters... (I loved the bit about floating on her wings - it was beautiful... SHE IS A NUTTER)
4. So what is the bit about changing pick up's to Tuesday night? LOOK you're asking for our help right? Well I've asked you already what is the current set of arrangement? what has been happening for the last few weeks? if you have 50/50 care already, then I'd suggest you forget court and just get better at working with the nutter. Court is a place to go if the ex stops the kids visiting at all. But if you've got decent access then forget court.
5. Attend some stuff. Go to a school presentation thing. Tell her you'll book the kids into the dentist on your time...
6. PLAY THE GAME.... Seriously, when you change your approach / attitude instead of worrying about this stuff you can start living a bit more....
7. So let's look at her rant. She wants change over done on Tuesday? Can you do that from school? I reckon you suck it up.... Write to her...
Dear ex, you are awesome you are great. YOU ARE RIGHT. With that in mind I'd like to suggest that we write up consent orders and I will pay to have the court approve them. If you agree I'll get working on writing them up and I'll send them to you for approval. Can you please tell me of anything you would like included. I have taken your advice on board, I'm going to get the kids lunchboxes before school resumes and I'm going to make a point of attending more school functions. SUCK IT UP...
8. Suck it up. Yep wrote it twice. See right now you have nothing. Until you have consent orders you are at her mercy. So suck it up. BUT as soon as the ink dries on the court orders the game changes. The best way to get court orders is by consent.
Questions
1. What has the access been like for the last few weeks? consistent? in-consistent? how many nights? how is it arranged?
2. What does centrelink know? What sort of access do they think he has?
3. Is he paying child support? if so is it through CSA? how many nights care do they think he has?

Hi Sammy,

Yes she is a nutter. For 3 years it as been 80/20 all him as she had a life to live other than the kids. He was paying more than half of everything as she has used those children to get what she wants out of him the whole time.

She wants change over done on Tuesday? Can you do that from school? No we can't do that from school as she works till 8pm on a Tuesday night. The kids are in bed at 7.30pm. This is why we are looking to have it proposed we take them to school on the Wednesday morning. we drop off at 8am the next day kids lunches made hair done and dressed for school. It's getting to early for her to get up to the kids coming back is what we have been told.

1. We have them as per her demands 4 years ago Every second weekend Friday p/u her place - Wednesday morning then the other week Monday after school till Wednesday morning drop of to her before school. We are not going for more time as the kids as much as she is a nutter love their Mum. We ave sent proposed consent orders to keep things as they are with clauses such as drop off and pick up is in a park rather than at her house. However we are now looking at us taking them to school on Wednesday mornings and picking them up from School on Friday afternoons. This will limit stress on the children seeing her yell at their father in front of them Email communication to try and stop the harassment to give notice to each other if we need the other parent to look after kids so we can organize time off as is hard for my partner. If he doesn't work he doesn't get paid. That we will go 50/50 in schooling and discuss extra curricular activities. (Message to the eldest one from her mother "I'm booking you into Piano tell your Dad he has to pay for it') She is originally from another state and my partner before I came along was petrified that she would take them there and not come back. He had no idea about the law and tried a while ago to have the children come and live with him as she could not deal with the children. He didn't have the money so gave up. It's sad to say but my partner before I came along was mentally broken by this woman.

2. Centrelink up until a couple of months ago were being told by her that she had 100% care. i told my partner that this whole time while he was paying everything for the kids even down to bread and milk if he wanted his kids to have breakfast (her words) I let him know (having been a single mother myself) that he was entitled to some help as he had them 50/50. He started his application and was given back pay. We earn to much now to receive anything. I believe she did get a debt from them as she has been lying for nearly 4 years about 100% care.

3. No he doesn't pay child support. She has always threatened that she will go to child support and we have now found out that the reason she has not is that she would have to pay him not much though. As stated previously if he doesn't work he doesn't get paid. The whole arrangement was set up so she didn't lose any work time. He drops them off to school and picks them up on the weekend we have them then the other Monday afternoon and Tuesday. we are looking into before school care which I know we will be abused for as she believes he should take every school holiday off with them.

We are looking at self representation and I am gaining some great advice and how to deal with her and ways to respond to messages like yesterday. M partner wanted to go straight back at her and dispute everything as he knows it is not true, but since the advise and reading a lot I kept my cool and we put something together. Of course she came back with more but we just ignored her. You cannot win with a narcissist.

Thank you again for your advice and ideas.

 

[stepmum]

Can't believe you just told someone to dump their solicitor. Each to their own though.

Scruff we are doing a lot of things on our own however guided by our solicitor. We have help financially from both his and my parents. I honestly don't think we could go this totally alone. She is playing the emotional well being of the children card now. As you can see it is all about her "support their mother" she is sheer crazy.

I was a single mum since my daughter was 5 and I wanted my daughter to spend time with her Dad any chance he got as he was a shift worker. I really don't understand some people.

 

[sammy01]

So to explain. Dump solicitor.
Solicitors are a great idea for court. Especially if the whole public speaking thing scares you. Public speaking scary, court scary, way too scary for many... HENCE solicitor is a good place to have a solicitor. BUT everything up to that point I reckon an average punter can do on their own, or at least a hell of a lot of it...
Last time I checked solicitors charge about $30 for every hundred words they read or write. They charge in 6 minute intervals for converations, they charge charge for photo-copying, filing, smiling.
So back in the day I spent about $30 000 on a solicitor. Now at the time I had an AVO against me which meant I was not allowed to contact the ex. So a solicitor was necessary. $30 000 without even seeing the inside of a court (except for the local court for the avo). So $30 000 to get to see the kids.

But at this point our poor punter is talking about contacting their solicitor to organise counselling and a parenting program. They will advise you to seek counselling, they will communicate the various services available and they will charge you for the conversation. Same with a parenting program but they will charge you for providing information / advice that can be sourced for FREE.

 

[sammy01]

How old are his kids? They are at school?
So I'd suggest you write to her proposing consent orders and inform her that you guys will continue with the current arrangements but with you guys doing all pick up's and drop offs from school. So that is easy. She can refuse, but if you pick up and drop off from school you can minimise all contact.
You're wasting your time asking her to stop harassing you, all you're doing is telling you that it is annoying / hurting / frustrating you... In short you're telling her that it is succeeding AND IT IS and only you can change that because she isn't gonna change.

Then just get used to dealing with stupidity.... So, for a long while I had a bat phone.... Well bat sh*t crazy phone. I kept it in the boot of my car and the only person who rang it was the ex. She didn't know that I had another phone for normal people. But by keeping it in the boot of my car I could rest easy.... I didn't get scared everytime my other phone rang / beeped etc and I could choose when to look at the bat phone.
Like i said, you lot don't need solicitors, you need a psychologist to teach you how to manage having a crazy person in your lives.

 

[Scruff]

She's playing a power game. The simple fact is that she will continue to do this as long as she has primary care. Nothing is likely to change unless you take that power away - and given the history of "3 years it has been 80/20 all him", that is exactly what dad should do. It is by far in the best interests of everyone to return to this stability and to do it formally. Will that get her to wake up to herself? Who knows, but if it does, then that's a bonus.

If she rejected mediation, then you can draw up all the proposals you want - I don't see her agreeing to any of it. You could threaten to go to court and even threaten to seek full custody if she doesn't at least start co-operating - but given her "Game On" attitude, I seriously doubt that it would have any effect at all. And that's the whole problem - she's treating all of this as game to begin with; she knows she's winning; and she knows it's getting to you and dad.

She is originally from another state and my partner before I came along was petrified that she would take them there and not come back.

That in itself is a reason why dad must have a formal arrangement in place. If she takes off with the kids, then it will be much easier to get the court to order that the kids be brought back and there's a high chance that they would end up with dad full time as a result.

I certainly would not be offering or agreeing to 50/50 considering the way she's been behaving under those terms already. The primary goal should be to return the kids to the stability that they had before mum let the roos out of the top paddock - and this is what everyone should be focused on.

 

[stepmum]

So to explain. Dump solicitor.
Solicitors are a great idea for court. Especially if the whole public speaking thing scares you. Public speaking scary, court scary, way too scary for many... HENCE solicitor is a good place to have a solicitor. BUT everything up to that point I reckon an average punter can do on their own, or at least a hell of a lot of it...
Last time I checked solicitors charge about $30 for every hundred words they read or write. They charge in 6 minute intervals for converations, they charge charge for photo-copying, filing, smiling.
So back in the day I spent about $30 000 on a solicitor. Now at the time I had an AVO against me which meant I was not allowed to contact the ex. So a solicitor was necessary. $30 000 without even seeing the inside of a court (except for the local court for the avo). So $30 000 to get to see the kids.

But at this point our poor punter is talking about contacting their solicitor to organise counselling and a parenting program. They will advise you to seek counselling, they will communicate the various services available and they will charge you for the conversation. Same with a parenting program but they will charge you for providing information / advice that can be sourced for FREE.

Hi Sammy the kids are 7 & 9 now. I honestly think nothing will satisfy her as she feels we are controlling her and that is her biggest issue. Se likes to have all the control.

Regarding the solicitor I totally get what you are saying. We are lodging and doing our own affidavit. This was suggested by our solicitor. They have been a family solicitior/family for 30years. So we are lucky in that sense.