SA Child withheld against interim orders. No access. Issue with child care centre

[Been2Trial]

gunnerzzz, The very first morning I dropped child to centre after my first overnight since interim orders made, I arrived at the centre, introduced myself to the staff and took my daughter into her classroom. All was happy days at this point and I had no idea what was in progress already.

As I was doing that, unbeknownst to me, the center director was on the phone to my ex reporting to her my arrival time (which was on time), then came up to watch me saying goodbye to my daughter and attempting to leave. Daughter had what the centre describes as a "meltdown" and startee crying. I decided I would distract her with some painting and stayed for 5msins while she settled, then I left while the going was good. Apparently child had another emotional meltdown upon realizing I had left and next thing you know, director was back on the phone to report all this to ex, who then had director send this all in writing to her.

Ex withheld child immediately from that point, despite having interim orders. Within a few days of this, I became aware of the letter from centre director etc from memory, or it might have been when the following affidavit was made when I immediately applied for an emergency hearing to get it sorted. I had only had that one night at this point. Getting back in court took about 2 months.

So finally it gets sorted, I go in the first afternoon I have my parenting time scheduled to pick up my child. Time on order starts at 4pm. I am walking down the stairs with my child, its 3:56pm and I'm about to head out the front door, when centre director asks me to come into a little meeting room off to the side near the front door. With my daughter in my arms and her kindy bag over my shoulder, I hear the click of the door locking behind me and the director standing in front of the door saying "I'm not letting you leave, it's not 4pm yet"...

Literally, tricked us into walking into an electronically lockable room 3mins before 4pm and then forcably held us there.

By this stage it's 3:58, and I am stunned beyond words. The whole thing is insane at this point.

That was the last straw for me, that's when I contacted the departments and started down the path of trying to hold the centre accountable because clearly they were overstepping thier boundaries and acting in a manner that was beyond thier scope.

 

[gunnerzzzz]

From my limited (3 interim hearings) experience, court hearings are like a box of chocolates.. You never know what you're going to get.

Yep...

I've been to 5 already on this matter. This will be 6 and trial has been vacated so number 7 has been scheduled now to re start that process later in the year.

Cost me about $16,000, just for the first 2 and property orders.

Imagine what I would be upto now with lawyer fees if that continued.

5 hearings more, 2x applications in a case filed, conciliation conference and then a trial. Plus who knows if I will required to file a contravention order too or wether her honour will just take action on it.

I shutter to think at what this process costs people.

 

[GlassHalfFull]

That's horrible Been2Trial... I had a somewhat similar experience too... When I was dropping off my daughter at daycare, I said goodbye and that I would miss her. This was reported back to my ex (and eventually me) that my goodbyes were too prolonged and distressing to my daughter. They apparently didn't consider that maybe saying goodbye to her father after just 2 hours with him was what was distressing to her rather than the goodbye, and that I was doing my best to talk to her and tell her I wasn't just abandoning her.

Now I'm not saying my approach was 100% right, because I've since thought about it and realised that maybe I was accidentally burdening her with the feeling that I was sad about leaving her (which then made her sad for me), when that wasn't my intention at all. But seriously... Daycare must deal with children upset at saying goodbye to their parents literally every day! It's just completely wrong to blame the parent for it.

Your experience was far worse though. I've definitely had the daycare centre trying to enforce timing with me though. Particularly instances where I've been late back (a stern phone call). They've said they are happy to be flexible about 5 minutes here and there but still feel it is their duty to enforce handover times, which I think (as per my link many pages prior) is overstepping their legal responsibility.

 

[gunnerzzzz]

gunnerzzz, The very first morning I dropped child to centre after my first overnight since interim orders made, I arrived at the centre, introduced myself to the staff and took my daughter into her classroom. All was happy days at this point and I had no idea what was in progress already.

As I was doing that, unbeknownst to me, the center director was on the phone to my ex reporting to her my arrival time (which was on time), then came up to watch me saying goodbye to my daughter and attempting to leave. Daughter had what the centre describes as a "meltdown" and startee crying. I decided I would distract her with some painting and stayed for 5msins while she settled, then I left while the going was good. Apparently child had another emotional meltdown upon realizing I had left and next thing you know, director was back on the phone to report all this to ex, who then had director send this all in writing to her.

Ex withheld child immediately from that point, despite having interim orders. Within a few days of this, I became aware of the letter from centre director etc from memory, or it might have been when the following affidavit was made when I immediately applied for an emergency hearing to get it sorted. I had only had that one night at this point. Getting back in court took about 2 months.

So finally it gets sorted, I go in the first afternoon I have my parenting time scheduled to pick up my child. Time on order starts at 4pm. I am walking down the stairs with my child, its 3:56pm and I'm about to head out the front door, when centre director asks me to come into a little meeting room off to the side near the front door. With my daughter in my arms and her kindy bag over my shoulder, I hear the click of the door locking behind me and the director standing in front of the door saying "I'm not letting you leave, it's not 4pm yet"...

Literally, tricked us into walking into an electronically lockable room 3mins before 4pm and then forcably held us there.

By this stage it's 3:58, and I am stunned beyond words. The whole thing is insane at this point.

That was the last straw for me, that's when I contacted the departments and started down the path of trying to hold the centre accountable because clearly they were overstepping thier boundaries and acting in a manner that was beyond thier scope.

And why where you ripped a new one by the judge and ICL at trial over this?

And how could a judge decide that was a reasonable excuse to withhold?

I've seen parents walk off with kids crying every morning I took my daughter to pre school.

 

[gunnerzzzz]

That's horrible Been2Trial... I had a somewhat similar experience too... When I was dropping off my daughter at daycare, I said goodbye and that I would miss her. This was reported back to my ex (and eventually me) that my goodbyes were too prolonged and distressing to my daughter. They apparently didn't consider that maybe saying goodbye to her father after just 2 hours with him was what was distressing to her rather than the goodbye, and that I was doing my best to talk to her and tell her I wasn't just abandoning her.

Now I'm not saying my approach was 100% right, because I've since thought about it and realised that maybe I was accidentally burdening her with the feeling that I was sad about leaving her (which then made her sad for me), when that wasn't my intention at all. But seriously... Daycare must deal with children upset at saying goodbye to their parents literally every day! It's just completely wrong to blame the parent for it.

Your experience was far worse though. I've definitely had the daycare centre trying to enforce timing with me though. Particularly instances where I've been late back (a stern phone call). They've said they are happy to be flexible about 5 minutes here and there but still feel it is their duty to enforce handover times, which I think (as per my link many pages prior) is overstepping their legal responsibility.

and my centre says orders aren't their responsibility to enforce or be obliged to act in accordance with.

 

[GlassHalfFull]

and my centre says orders aren't their responsibility to enforce or be obliged to act in accordance with.

Because it suits their narrative to ignore orders that benefit you. In my case, it suits their narrative to use the orders to ensure I don't get any more time with my children than the court has ordered, even though it doesn't actually reduce the time my ex has with them (they're at daycare after all, not with her!). It should be a fairly uncontested fact that time spent with parents should be prioritised over time spent in daycare IMO... It starts to get a bit more complicated as they get to kinder and then school of course, but when they are young, parents are best for children...

 

[Been2Trial]

Gunnerzzz...

Ultimately I was ripped a new one for arguing with the centre over 3mins in front of the child (I admit, frustration at that point began to get the better of me). But the real kicker was that the child's schedule was ultimately upended because the centre cancelled enrollment and that "isn't in the best interests of the child"

 

[gunnerzzzz]

Gunnerzzz...

Ultimately I was ripped a new one for arguing with the centre over 3mins in front of the child (I admit, frustration at that point began to get the better of me). But the real kicker was that the child's schedule was ultimately upended because the centre cancelled enrollment and that "isn't in the best interests of the child"

OK... I haven't done that. I went there, they denied me access and everything from there has been on email.

I can certainly understand why that can happen though.

Interesting enough.... I just had a call from our child's actual pre school that she's now missed for a month. Requesting permission to lodge a case with child services to flag our child as been withheld and missing out on schooling.

I checked with that centres director and contacting the link posted before was that answer.

Basically my pre school is under department of education and processes are different. If a party was to have an issue, there's the department of education that can assess the issue independently.

Because this is a group that's essentially a day care, with a kindy room, not under policies and curriculum etc of the department of education... At the moment I have in essence the the centre in question making rulings on itself.

At the end of the day... They are a business and for sure will be looking more at their own liabilities in answering anything.

 

[gunnerzzzz]

Because it suits their narrative to ignore orders that benefit you. In my case, it suits their narrative to use the orders to ensure I don't get any more time with my children than the court has ordered, even though it doesn't actually reduce the time my ex has with them (they're at daycare after all, not with her!). It should be a fairly uncontested fact that time spent with parents should be prioritised over time spent in daycare IMO... It starts to get a bit more complicated as they get to kinder and then school of course, but when they are young, parents are best for children...

I get you're point on the mother not missing out on time in that scenario. That's where the grey area comes in. Even though you're child's in the centre, it's still the other parents time as you have dropped the child off.

Instead of pushing the other parent, they should be encouraging and accepting of their relationships.

Out of curiosity... Was this a place under you're states department of education?

Or one of those independant groups... Like goodstart?

 

[GlassHalfFull]

I get you're point on the mother not missing out on time in that scenario. That's where the grey area comes in. Even though you're child's in the centre, it's still the other parents time as you have dropped the child off.

Well that's technically correct, but that's where you need to get orders that stipulate things clearly I suppose. Everything favours the primary carer because they have complete flexibility and choice about how to structure the time of the child while under their care (have them in daycare, take them out of daycare etc), whereas the non-resident parent tends to be allocated blocks of x hours on certain days and if there is to be any deviation from that, it has to be by negotiation with the primary carer parent who has no incentive to be flexible to the other parent at all.

Out of curiosity... Was this a place under you're states department of education? Or one of those independant groups... Like goodstart?

Independent, but not a large child care group... an individual not for profit co-operative daycare. Still bound by all the usual rules and regulations of the state body though.