NSW Advice on Visitation Agreement during advo in local court and removal from set location.

[Stargazer]

Hi my husband was removed from our house after a nasty domestic violence incident. My children were witness to the event and we're severely traumatised by everything they saw. My husband was charged, advo issued for both myself and my children. The police and legal aid helped us secure a interim avo and he pleaded guilty to assult occasioning actual bodily harm. He has since been sentenced with a section 9 good behavior bond and ordered to attend counselling and the final avo was issued for myself and my children.

During the first court date his lawyer advised us that he had advised my ex husband that he had not been excluded from the house and that he could move back in to the house as he was on the lease agreement, so long as he didn't harrass or intimidate either myself and the children there was nothing legally the police could do to remove him. The police and my legal aid lawyer agreed that an exclusion order to enter the property needed to be added as well as he was not allowed to contact any of us unless via a lawyer. My ex husband and lawyer didn't agree to this unless I offered visitation for the children. The judge and legal aid wanted supervised visitation for 2hrs every Saturday and Sunday but because we didn't have a contact centre near us and I had no one suitable to supervise, he was offered a interim parenting orders with a set time and location in a public place and a alternative location due to poor weather. He signed the agreement and it passed over the judges desk and she agreed to it and issued a interim avo.

Sorry for how long this is but my question is... If he was to remove the children from the set location that was agreed upon and took them to his private residence would the police intervene even though it is during his set visitation time. I have heard chatter that he is planning to do this even though it was not in the set plan. He asked to take them to his house this week and I said no as we needed to follow the agreement we both signed. I am worried that because the parenting agreement was not made via family law court the police will not take it seriously. There is a lot more to this but it way to long already. Thanks

 

[sammy01]

So firstly, go make a nice cuppa tea... Calm down.
Are you worried he wont return them? Ok so - even if you took the kids to the designated location, he could bundle the kids in the car. True? So what does it matter if he takes them to his house? So long as he returns them... TRUE?

You seem to be concerned that he will take them to his house. if he does, it is not a breach of the ADVO (I dont think - but without reading it??). It might be a breach of the agreement...

Now - again, it all comes down to wording and interpretation... So what exact words (minus names and location) are in the agreement? Does it say he MUST NOT remove the kids from that location? I doubt it will... So he isn't doing anything wrong so long as he returns them at the right time.

Next - Why not agree? Why not let him take the kids to his place?

So right now you have all the power. You could suggest he keep the kids for 3 or 4 hours...Couldn't you? The kids spend more time at school than with their dad... But a small positive gesture from you might be worth more than you know.

So to help you understand my perspective. I've been where your ex is... My ex would not budge. Not a minute more... So I had 1 hour a week. Just for fun, you know what she routinely did? She'd get ther 15 min late. Insist on having to breast feed, insist on having to change the nappy and then insist i be back in 20 min because she has managed to waste 40 min... But my 1 hour had to end at 2pm and she let me know that if I was late then I'd broken the agreement and she would not be continuing to give me access...

Now that was a good few years ago... But I remember... So these days the kids live with me... they see their mum 9 times a year. So these days it is me who gets to choose if they have an extra night here or there...

So - if he bundles the kids up from the designated location but returns them at the right time.. What harm has been done?
IF he bundles up and takes the kids and doesn't return them - The cops will get involved because he will have breached the avo... You can ask the cops to go to his house and do a welfare check, if he didn't return them. They will understand that there is an avo against him and they are likely to encourage him to return the kids and they will be telling him that. So if he took them and didn't return them, you call your solicitor on Monday morning, your solicitor will call his solicitor and if he has half a brain he'll return the kids.

How is ya cuppa?

 

[Stargazer]

So firstly, go make a nice cuppa tea... Calm down.
Are you worried he wont return them? Ok so - even if you took the kids to the designated location, he could bundle the kids in the car. True? So what does it matter if he takes them to his house? So long as he returns them... TRUE?

You seem to be concerned that he will take them to his house. if he does, it is not a breach of the ADVO (I dont think - but without reading it??). It might be a breach of the agreement...

Now - again, it all comes down to wording and interpretation... So what exact words (minus names and location) are in the agreement? Does it say he MUST NOT remove the kids from that location? I doubt it will... So he isn't doing anything wrong so long as he returns them at the right time.

Next - Why not agree? Why not let him take the kids to his place?

So right now you have all the power. You could suggest he keep the kids for 3 or 4 hours...Couldn't you? The kids spend more time at school than with their dad... But a small positive gesture from you might be worth more than you know.

So to help you understand my perspective. I've been where your ex is... My ex would not budge. Not a minute more... So I had 1 hour a week. Just for fun, you know what she routinely did? She'd get ther 15 min late. Insist on having to breast feed, insist on having to change the nappy and then insist i be back in 20 min because she has managed to waste 40 min... But my 1 hour had to end at 2pm and she let me know that if I was late then I'd broken the agreement and she would not be continuing to give me access...

Now that was a good few years ago... But I remember... So these days the kids live with me... they see their mum 9 times a year. So these days it is me who gets to choose if they have an extra night here or there...

So - if he bundles the kids up from the designated location but returns them at the right time.. What harm has been done?
IF he bundles up and takes the kids and doesn't return them - The cops will get involved because he will have breached the avo... You can ask the cops to go to his house and do a welfare check, if he didn't return them. They will understand that there is an avo against him and they are likely to encourage him to return the kids and they will be telling him that. So if he took them and didn't return them, you call your solicitor on Monday morning, your solicitor will call his solicitor and if he has half a brain he'll return the kids.

How is ya cuppa?

My cuppa is amazing thank sammy01. I completely agree with everything you said and under normal circumstances I would love to facilitate more time between my children and their father. You are right though, there is nothing stating that he can't remove them from the agreed location. It states that I am to drop off and pick up the children to their father at set location unless it is poor weather in which case they will spend time with their father at a set indoor location.

It was the judge that actually pushed for the supervised visitation and did not want to grant him any visitation unless it was supervised. It was me who offered visitation in a public place so it is not like I am trying to keep the kids from him. The reason for the push for supervised visitation was what one of my children revealed while being interviewed by police. There were allegations of physical abuse including him trying to choke them on two separate occasions.

The child in question also has special needs and he can become very volitile around them because he can not cope with their behaviors. There is a ongoing investigation around the allegations and we are working with the appropriate people. So yes there are valid concerns about him taking my children to a private location and their safety. Just last week during his 2hr visit he became angry at my child who is only 8 and left them sitting at a park by themselves for 50min while he took our younger two children to the shops. Luckily someone who knew my child saw how distressed they had become and contacted me so I could go and wait with them until my ex husband returned. Thanks for taking the time to comment and as I said I do agree with everything you wrote but at the moment I am just trying to protect my children from further abuse.

 

[sammy01]

Ok so look, you seem pretty reasonable. See I come from a different place. My ex used the kids, to basically extort money from me...

So the 'agreement' you signed at court for child access is not legally binding. It is completely un-enforcable.

So while dad could take the kids and not return them, it would be a bloody bad idea for him to do so...
This is a long game.

If you have genuine fears for the kids, then you're better off NOT giving dad access... But lets be clear here because there are dangers attached.... If you refuse access on welfare grounds AND down the track a magistrate decides that your 'welfare' grounds are not substantial - then you're stuffed.

Example - Ex claims I'm an alcoholic. I agree that I will not drink while the kids are with me.... She asks little kids (eldest was about 6). According to mum the kids saw me drinking alcohol. They might have seen me drink a bottle of lemonade... Heck - they might have even seen me drink beer... But it doesn't matter. If I was pulled over and failed a drink drive test - different story...

So while you might not like his parenting decisions UNLESS they can be substantiated as abuse, or wreckless, you're on a hiding to nothing...

 

[Stargazer]

Ok so look, you seem pretty reasonable. See I come from a different place. My ex used the kids, to basically extort money from me...

So the 'agreement' you signed at court for child access is not legally binding. It is completely un-enforcable.

So while dad could take the kids and not return them, it would be a bloody bad idea for him to do so...
This is a long game.

If you have genuine fears for the kids, then you're better off NOT giving dad access... But lets be clear here because there are dangers attached.... If you refuse access on welfare grounds AND down the track a magistrate decides that your 'welfare' grounds are not substantial - then you're stuffed.

Example - Ex claims I'm an alcoholic. I agree that I will not drink while the kids are with me.... She asks little kids (eldest was about 6). According to mum the kids saw me drinking alcohol. They might have seen me drink a bottle of lemonade... Heck - they might have even seen me drink beer... But it doesn't matter. If I was pulled over and failed a drink drive test - different story...

So while you might not like his parenting decisions UNLESS they can be substantiated as abuse, or wreckless, you're on a hiding to nothing...

Thanks again sammy01 I am a very reasonable person but when it comes to protecting my children I will do anything I can. I knew even when the judge advised against any visitation, in the family courts eyes I needed to be seen as willing to allow a relationship with their father which is why I offered what I did. Unfortunately yesterday I learnt you were right and the parenting orders that he agreed to amd signed are worth nothing more than the paper they were written on. He did end up removing my children from the set location. When my eldest child objected he ended up dragging them through a carpark screaming on their bottom and forcing them into the car.

The incident was reported by a concerned member of the public to the police. My child started to text me that they had been hurt and my ex has taken them to his new place. She was messaging both myself and a close friend that they were scared and wanted help because he had become angry. He refused to tell her where they were or the address. When they asked to go back to the park he refused because it wasn't time yet. I rang the police and they mentioned the other report from the public member. They said it sounded more like a parental discipline issue and they refused to intervene because it was their father and they can not remove a child from their parent. They said they would not have time to try and track him down and to call them at the end of visitation when they had been returned. He did return 3 very traumatised children to me and tried to make the excuse that he had to quickly go home to get my Mother's Day gift. My child used Google Maps on their phone to try and pinpoint her location which was only 5min away. He had them at his house scared for over 1.5hrs so his excuse did not add up.

Luckily he cancelled his visit 20min before they were meant to met him today. I am going to do everything in my power to find some help tomorrow about this situation and the best way to proceed. I don't have a lawyer yet as it has only been 1mth since this all has happened. I thought I had a slight bit of breathing room with the avo and parenting orders before I found a lawyer to help. I am still physically recovering from my injuries some which will be life long and I haven't hardly touched the emotional side of things for myself. I am trying to piece our lives back together again and keep a roof over our heads but every time I even try to take a breath he throws something else at me.

 

[thatbloke]

My child, My children, My child. They are NOT your possessions, He is their DAD. I lose count of the number of times people claim totally crap reasons for, deep down, what they really want. and that is to separate children from a parent for some kind of power trip/revenge//morale boost/other reason

DId Dad see them in his house when you lived together? YES!!!!! Let the kids spend time with Dad and you 2 just keep away with each other

You seem to know an awful lot about a supposed visit you were not meant to be observing and a lot about this "concerned citizen" and a LOT about the supposed police report (in any case the police were satisfied there was no problem) . To me it sounds like you hung around yourself...

 

[sammy01]

Or another way of looking at this is that dad is within his rights to take the kids to his house.
The child was being defiant towards her dad (and if that is the case then we're entitled to ask why??? Was the kid told to put up a fight? Surely the child would not see anything wrong with getting into dad's car unless someone advised them differently.

Look we only get to hear one side of the story and like THAT BLOKE has noted, there appear to be some inconsistencies. I kinda have a problem with a magistrate ordering supervised visits - then changing his mind... I live in a rural location and have heard of people travelling 2 hours to use a supervision service.

My advice - don't go see a solicitor.
Call Relationships Australia - they can help organise mediation cheaply and possibly for free.

I fail to see what the problem was with him taking the kids to his place. After all he returned them on time... If the kid was traumatised by being told to go with their dad, the cynic in me wants to know why?