ACT What is the Difference Between Legal Aid and Funded Lawyer?

[goodgravy]

Hope I'm not pushing the friendship with another question.

I've just been making the lists you mentioned Allforher re 'a list of outcomes you prefer, a list of alternative outcomes that could be considered, a list of outcomes you won't compromise on, and a list of reasons for each in terms of children's best interests' and am literally trying to cover all possible scenarios.

We have no plans to move currently but I feel like I should think about what could happen if we ever wanted to/had to leave. Our orders say that there's shared parenting if both parents live in the same town, and that if my ex is not living in town then kids reside with me (The children shall live with the father until such time as the mother returns to XXXX and is established in stable accommodation.).

If negotiation is unsuccessful and the ex is unsuccessful in court/it doesn't get to court, and ups and leaves town on her own and doesn't return, what legal hoops do I have to go through if I ever need to move? Do I still have to apply for relocation?

 

[AllForHer]

This scenario is too broad and too unpredictable to be including in orders at this point. You can't just write "That the father be at liberty to relocate with X, Y and Z where and when he so chooses." What if the move is one hour away from the mother? What if it's ten hours away? Overseas? Each of those situations would warrant a different set of time spent with arrangements, but you can't make orders that cover each and every aspect of parenting every day until each child turns 18.

Instead, I'd suggest just leaving such orders out all together. If they're not in there, they're harder to enforce. If the mother opposed the relocation, she would have to file for a relocation order from the court, but if she's not living nearby anyway, it's unlikely to succeed, if she were to file at all.

 

[goodgravy]

Yes, you're right. Overthinking it again! Thanks for your thoughts.

This scenario is too broad and too unpredictable to be including in orders at this point. You can't just write "That the father be at liberty to relocate with X, Y and Z where and when he so chooses." What if the move is one hour away from the mother? What if it's ten hours away? Overseas? Each of those situations would warrant a different set of time spent with arrangements, but you can't make orders that cover each and every aspect of parenting every day until each child turns 18.

Instead, I'd suggest just leaving such orders out all together. If they're not in there, they're harder to enforce. If the mother opposed the relocation, she would have to file for a relocation order from the court, but if she's not living nearby anyway, it's unlikely to succeed, if she were to file at all.

 

[sammy01]

I had court orders that stipulated no relocation beyond 50km from XXXX. I live in the country so really it dictated that the ex could not leave with the kids... It was handy to have but in reality, because I had 5 nights a fortnight care, my solicitor told me that she felt confident that the ex would struggle to get a relocation order through the courts...

All good - move on about 18 months...She never took it to court but did make all sorts of threats through solicitors to move 6 hours away. She left, but she didn't take the kids....

Ok - oops ranting. Look as far as consent orders go, you really can't provide orders that provide for every possible eventuality and more importantly, you've gotta be flexible. I recall when I was in mediation, we spent an hour talking about whether the kids would be picked up at 3pm or 4pm.

Given what I was paying my solicitor, I should have just agreed because there were more important things to discuss so don't get caught up with nitty gritty. And more importantly, this is all just fun and games. No enforceable decision will be made unless you guys agree on a decision. So really if your ex is intent on moving, this is just the first step in her process in getting authorisation to move....

You're not gonna agree so she'll have to seek authorisation from a magistrate... Now as far as the chances of that happening, well, let's hope that she realises that running a court case is a bad idea and that legal aid (hopefully) won't fund it...

 

[goodgravy]

Thanks also Sammy. Was hoping you'd weigh in. Really can't tell you both how good it is to get these opinions and personal experiences. And reminders to not get ahead of myself.

 

[sammy01]

Look, I don't wanna sound like I'm rail roading the process, but I'd walk in and state not agreeing to relocation, so let's not discuss it. Simple. Then you're in charge of the agenda because that is the only thing she is going to want to discuss. Or suggest relocation is fine and you'll provide additional time beyond what is normally considered reasonable but the kids will live with you. This is how my scenario panned out.

Ex wanted to leave and left the kids. To seal the deal. I agreed to 60% of all holidays except winter, she gets all of winter. Works well, I go to Bali for all the winter school holidays. She also gets 2 additional weeks a year during school time. I hate that one. Education is important but 2 weeks a year ain't gonna kill them.

So encourage her to leave but the kids stay with you. Makes it seem like you're willing to discuss relocation but only with some very reasonable considerations. Apart from that, I would refuse to enter into any conversation that sees the kids move away from you. Why? Best interests of the kids is for them to have both parents. Simple.

If the other parent desires to move away is a greater priority to her than her relationship with her kids, OK, her choice.

Look, it is something I reckon we're not very good at. Basically being brutally blunt - but that is the long and the short of it, so let's not dance around the facts.

 

[goodgravy]

Really appreciate this message Sammy! You should be a motivational speaker. She's taken off several times before without any consultation so I know that this time she really wants to take the kids (by her own admission she needs the money the bring in).

 

[sammy01]

Look I'm really keen to see how this pans out. So remind us? You already have court orders? What sorta access do they provide for you? how old are the kids?

My thinking really is to attend mediation without solicitors. Remember, it puts you to no disadvantage. None whatsoever. Court is a different story but by saving your funds you will have the money when it comes to court, which is when I reckon a solicitor is worth their money...

Remember before mediation I reckon the good folk here will help you out with some doozies. Stuff like one of my favourites from one of my many goes at mediation "Can you explain how moving the kid 700km away from me, my parents, their school, their friends etc is in their best interests and while we're at it, can you please explain how moving them to a town where my ex has no family within about 200km is in any way going to be better than where they currently reside...?" Long pause...

Or based on what I'm reading in your case - how about this one... "Can you please remind me - how many times have you taken off without consultation? It just concerns be that if I were to agree, what is to say you wont want to move again.... Oh and btw, how is all this moving around providing any consistency for the kids because while you have every right to move where ever you want, were not here to discuss your desires, were here to discuss the best interests of the children..."

Seriously - I'm an old hand at this. I've done mediation 5 maybe 6 times with different organisations...I felt some of them were really sexist against me as a male. One even said "but children need their mother" you can imagine my response to that one...

Anyways rant over, keep us informed.

 

[goodgravy]

Hi Sammy, kids are 10 (almost 11), 13 and 16. We have shared care when ex is in town. We've had many many attempts at mediation through relationships Australia. Never goes anywhere. Ex took off with the kids in 2008 and I sought a recovery order. Got the kids back (she stayed interstate) and the orders state that if she isn't in town then the kids are with me full time. If she comes back then it's shared care.

She came back in 2009, stayed a year or so, left again for a couple of years and then came back with a new husband. I actually gave her an extra day a week so she could spend more time bonding with the kids so while the orders say 50/50 it's actually 60/40 in reality. Anyway, the ex broke up with her new husband and now she wants to go to WA.

I'm not even sure how a family law conference is different to mediation. Is it because you can draw up consent orders there? I'm not sure how she got legal aid for the conference either. She's had me investigated by child protection twice (nothing ever came of it) so I'm wondering if she got funding for the conference by raising more abuse allegations. Who knows. I'm taking on board what you and Allforher said about the worth of having a lawyer there. I think court is imminent. I guess my biggest concern is the age of the kids.

Obviously, you can't force a 16-year-old or even a 13 year old to do anything. If they are on on board with a shiny new adventure in WA I can't really stop them and it sounds like a court can't/won't either. But I know that it's not what's best for them.

 

[goodgravy]

Hi Sammy, just by way of an update Legal Aid has contacted us to say they cant get hold of my ex to confirm a date for our dispute resolution. All that fuss seems to have just fizzled out...