NSW Child Starting Visitation with Father - Family Law Opinions?

[ClaiireQld]

Hi,

I have a few questions I'd greatly appreciate help on. A brief overview of my situation will be below.

1. Court date is set for April (End of Jan now). What is likely to be ordered at court if he see's child for 1.5 hrs most sundays until court? Will they allow unsupervised time even though he will have only seen her probably not even 10 times?

Keeping in mind the child does not attend day care and spends her time with me, and has no prior recollection of her father.

2. Her father has stated he will be seeking overnights soon as she will be 3 in May. She is still breastfed and from what I have read it is not generally ordered under 4 when the child has not grown up with the other parent. Is this correct?

3. My partner (who the child is very attached to) lives in SA and I am in QLD. I want to move myself and child there. We have talked about 1.5 -2 year time frame.

Is this reasonable in the eyes of the family court? What are the generally accepted parenting plans for long distance?

*One weekend per month travelling to qld + 1/2 each holiday period

Or

* Two weekends per month ( one being child travelling to qld and the other the father travelling to SA) + 1/2 holiday periods.

Overview:

*2 year old (3 in May) 2014

*Father never had much of a role, by choice and refusal

*DVO against him Oct 2015

*I moved to NSW for family support as I was alone in QLD and childs father not involved

*2 breaches in Oct and Nov

*No contact until July 2016 - received location order

*Sept 2016 received parenting orders

*Spoke with childs father and I decided to move back to QLD to facillitate the relationship now that he appeared genuine. 8th nov 2016

*Child's father's attitude did a 180 and his gf is now controlling the entire situation. He is extremely hostile and does not recognise a gradual process being in the childs best interest. He has refused proposals until the 18th dec and saw her twice. She does not have past recollection of him.

He cancelled all visits on the grounds of "taking his chances in court" and now only reconvienced for this Sunday. I have been trying to communicate and keep everything calm for almost 3 months.

*He expects 5 hours unsupervised, a no contact order against me and soon followed by overnights.

Any help please! My goal is to get to the place of unsupervised and overnights... but gradual so that my child stays happy and feeling safe.

 

[sammy01]

Did the courts order you back to QLD?

Look I'm picking up on some inconsistencies here... Seems like dad didn't have any contact with the child because you moved away and he had to get court orders to locate you? Does that sound right? If so, well he didn't get to see the kid because you hid the kid from him? True? I have I mis-understood.

3 year old breast feeding? Don't even bother - you can express milk for dad's overnight visits. But at 3 years old this is no reason to limit dad's time with the child.

You seem to have a very negative attitude towards the dad. Oh and somehow you think it ok to move back to QLD only to move to SA. So let the kid get to know dad, then move far enough away that the child can not sustain that relationship with dad...

5 hours unsupervised and a no-contact order seems reasonable. If he has the kid for 5 hours why should you be contacting him? overnight care within 2 months of routine 5 hour visits seems reasonable. Do you agree?

Maybe dad is taking his chances in court because he reckons the magistrate is gonna be more reasonable that you..

 

[AllForHer]

The question is whether the Court will order unsupervised time between dad and child.

You haven't said he poses a risk to the child, so I would say yes, the Court probably may allow unsupervised time, or if it does order supervised time, it's probably going to be with a family member, which is hardly supervised at all, and it's going to be temporary.

The argument that a three-year-old, who will be well and truly on to solids by now, is still breastfeeding is not going to be persuasive (or at least it has never been persuasive before), and likewise, the argument that dad has elected to be absent or that the child 'has no recollection of him' and 'is very attached to your partner' probably isn't going to have a lot of steam either.

You moved interstate which limited his ability to see the child, you sought a DVO that limited his capacity to contact you about the child, and he had to get a location order from the court to find you and his child. He has a persuasive argument to show that you're obstructing the child from having a relationship with him, which goes against the child's fundamental rights, and what's in his/her best interests.

If you continue blocking contact unless he follows your rules (e.g. insisting on supervised contact), then I would say dad is going to get a much better deal from Court.

 

[MartyK]

1. Court date is set for April (End of Jan now). What is likely to be ordered at court if he see's child for 1.5 hrs most sundays until court? Will they allow unsupervised time even though he will have only seen her probably not even 10 times?

...and has no prior recollection of the father

You say that he will be seeing the child for 1 and a half hours every Sunday from now until Court? For 2-3 months? Is this time supervised, and if so, by whom?

2. She is still breastfed and from what I have read it is not generally ordered under 4 when the child has not grown up with the other parent. Is this correct?

Unless the child has a medical condition that has interfered with their ability to consume solid foods, then breastfeeding a child of almost 3 years of age, when most children of that age are well and truely eating solids, will have little relevance to any orders made.

As the child will have limited familiarity with the father by the first Court date (and I am assuming this also applies to the paternal family?) the Judge may order supervised time or even hold off on making any orders until an 11F is at least prepared. This will really depend on what information is before the Court and will also likely depend on the return date.

3. My partner (who the child is very attached to) lives in SA and I am in QLD. I want to move myself and child there. We have talked about 1.5 -2 year time frame.

You can apply to the Court for relocation of the child, but is there really any point looking at any of this now when your plans are not definite?

 

[AllForHer]

On a side note, I find the concept of 'gradual introduction' rather uncanny. Do kids start school on a 'gradual' basis so they can get to know their teacher? Why are we okay with kids going into the care of total strangers for 30 hours a week, but feel that going into the care of a parent must be a gradual process?

Boggles the mind.

 

[Migz]

On a side note, I find the concept of 'gradual introduction' rather uncanny. Do kids start school on a 'gradual' basis so they can get to know their teacher? Why are we okay with kids going into the care of total strangers for 30 hours a week, but feel that going into the care of a parent must be a gradual process?

Boggles the mind.

AllForHer...You have completely nailed it, and it is something that comes up in my visitations time and time again, and it absolutely disgusts me that the Primary Carer is given so much power to dictate the terms even though it was them who walked away from the relationship.

And Claiireqld, you sound just like my ex, it was fine for you to lay in bed with this guy and then carry yours and his child for 9 months, but now that he wants to see his child you throw everything in his way to stop him from seeing his child, you move, you issue a DVO, you hook up with a new partner, and you have no problem having your partner "imprint" on your child as being the Father, then you turn around in the final breath and say that the Biological Father hasn't spent anytime with the child. It's cases like this where Judges should turn around and say "lets make the Father the primary care giver for now and see if he can facilitate a relationship between the Mother/Child".

 

[sammy01]

Yup totally agree... but - look the OP came here asking questions - they didn't come here to be berated - (and I kind of agree with the sentiment - Maybe we could try a gentler approach...)

Look Claire the family law system works on the basic premise that it is in the best interests of the child to have a meaningful relationship with both parents. The law goes on to say where practical that should include overnights / weekends and mid-week time. The law also considers other factors like DV and recent history.

Now as far as overnights - extended time away from you...look up Jen McIntosh - she talks about primary attachment theory.

Here is an article that will interest you:

http://www.legalaid.nsw.gov.au/__da...ments-for-0-to-4-year-olds-September-2011.pdf

Can I suggest you look up the two phrases in bold and read up on them?

One more thing - Look I do think your thoughts on what should happen are considerably removed from what a court would do... Not saying you're wrong - Just lending you a thought. Now that being the case, maybe it is best to reconsider your position and save yourself some time / money / stress and look for a compromise with dad... Just a thought because I reckon the court will make a call and it will be closer to dad's position than yours...

 

[MartyK]

On a side note, I find the concept of 'gradual introduction' rather uncanny. Do kids start school on a 'gradual' basis so they can get to know their teacher? Why are we okay with kids going into the care of total strangers for 30 hours a week, but feel that going into the care of a parent must be a gradual process?

Boggles the mind.

Teacher at school/school environment:

1. There is an element of supervision of teachers by senior staff, other staff members and also the wider school community. Most classrooms also have windows or common access doors which open the teaching environment to full view.

2. The children have peers as a support network

3. Teachers require a working with children check

4. Corporal punishment is no longer available (unlike laws in relation to parental discipline, which depending on the State, can be more relaxed than one would like)

5. Children are in a 'public' space and have immediate accessibly to other adults who can attend to situations as or when they arise

6. Teachers have been educated in educational psychology, child development (for the specific years they are teaching), attend regular pd's and can access both internal and external supports to assist with managing challenging behaviour and/or improve their own strategies

7. Children are not denied additional supports e.g school wellbeing support should they require it

8. Duty of care

The list goes on...

If we are taking about a parent that is a stranger to a child, then I do not think using a teacher at school is a very good analogy.

Would most members of the community (not just the separated community) be happier leaving their children in the care of a teacher at school, or with a complete stranger? Whether that be a biological parent or otherwise. Probably not.

It's cases like this where Judges should turn around and say "let's make the father (or mother) the primary care giver for now and see if he (/she) can facilitate a relationship between the Mother/child (Father/child) ".

This does happen at times Migz. But there would need to be significant reasons for a Judge to order a reverse of residence in the interim.

 

[AllForHer]

Okay, a more appropriate analogy - do infants require a gradual introduction to their parents? Are they sent home with some supervisor deemed more appropriate to give this child care than their own mother and father? Do parents require a working with children check?

I, for one, didn't need a support network to help me through spending time with either of my parents, but I suppose neither of them tried to obstruct me from having a relationship with the other, either.

The most relevant child psychology here is that children of tender age (5 and younger) have short memories - a child's memory of a parent will start to become hazy if they don't see a parent for three or so days, and in case it was unclear, that's both parents, not just the mother...

 

[sammy01]

OK my 2 cents...

Dad wanted a no contact order during his 5 hours of unsupervised visits... I'm gonna read between the lines here and use my experience. For a while, I had 1 hour a week with child. We met at McDonalds and mum did all she could to obstruct me from leaving then followed me. Reading between the lines here, sounds a bit similar.

But - I think the teacher analogy might still work... Why? well just like a teacher, who is still working, this dad has not been accused of anything. If a teacher is accused then forget supervision, you're talking leave without pay until a thorough investigation... This guy hasn't been accused of anything.

Oh and my fave... he was having 1.5 hours unsupervised right - he wants that increased to 5 hours. What is the big deal here...

Look this child is gonna grow up not knowing dad because that is what mum wants. Goodness, she wants to move to SA in 18 months, so child finally gets to bond with dad and then they move to the other side of the country...