VIC Can decision makers create their own version of events to stick the decision?

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Jack_G

Well-Known Member
4 May 2020
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I had some crazy experiences with the VCAT and FWC.
Case is against the large company.

In the reasons for the decision Member:
  1. Provides false statements. (Contradicting the evidence)
  2. Omits relevant facts.
  3. Argues the case for the respondent (makes arguments not mentioned by the respondent during the hearing)
  4. Brings up case law not mentioned by the respondent.
  5. Says that the witness is credible, even when the witness has trouble giving answers.
  6. Misinterprets the timeline of events
  7. States that the Applicant had little evidence, when in fact there was a lot.
I'm new to all this. Is it normal?
I feel I'm going mad.
 
Last edited:

Rob Legat - SBPL

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Here's a 'standard' lawyer's take on what you've said, without having the benefit of knowing anything about the case or the proceedings:

1. This could be anything.
2. 'Relevance' is a matter of opinion. The decision maker gets to determine the relevance. If they've been incorrect - that's what appeals/reviews are for.
3. The decision maker is allowed to come up with their own reasoning if they think it is relevant, or the parties have not sufficiently explored the concept. Pretty standard.
4. This is standard.
5. Having trouble answering questions does not mean they're not credible. There are many more factors at play here.
6. Unfortunately this can happen, especially when there are conflicting versions from either side. Don't forget they're looking at it without the benefit of having lived through it. If it's material in that it affects the outcome of the decision (and it usually often isn't) - look at your your appeal avenues.
7. Having a lot of material does not equate to having a lot of evidence. The rules of evidence are copious but simply put: it has to be relevant, it has to be admissible, redundancy doesn't help as much as people think it does, and it has to have 'weight'. You can tender a mountain of exhibits that can effectively add up to very little in terms of probative value. I would dare say the reference to 'little evidence' means 'not a lot of evidence with persuasive quality'.

Look it is confusing. Even lawyers can be left scratching their heads from time to time, wondering what the hell happened.
 

Jack_G

Well-Known Member
4 May 2020
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Thanks a lot for your response. It makes sense. I feel somewhat better now.
Here are some examples to demonstrate my points.
  1. False statements. Statement like "The following background is not contentious and is drawn primarily from the material submitted by the Applicant"
    But actually statements that follow are in fact in contention, and are primarily taken from the material submitted by the Respondent.
    Or the statement like "It's agreed by the parties..." No, it's not agreed by the parties!
    It's a flat out lie, is it not?

  2. Relevance example. Computer had a custom setup. Senior colleague allowed the setup, and this fact was completely omitted. Computer setup was the start of the issue for this case.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, no reasonable person can decide that this fact is irrelevant. You shouldn't need to appeal because of this, should you?

  3. I think the problem occurs when decision makers explore one side of the story only. Why decision maker didn't explore the concept for both sides?
    Instead decision maker says: "Absent any further detailed analysis of the relevant provisions by the applicant, I decide so and so"
    This statement means that decision maker knew that something was missing, but chose to omit it.

  4. Sect 577 (a) of the FWA: The FWC must perform its functions and exercise its powers in a manner that is fair and just;
    Is above considered fair and just?

  5. Sect 578 of the FWA: In performing functions or exercising powers, in relation to a matter, under a part of this Act (including this Part), the FWC must take into account:
    (a) the objects of this Act, and any objects of the part of this Act; and (b) equity, good conscience and the merits of the matter;

    That didn't happen, did it?
Thoughts? Am I looking at anything incorrectly?
 

JazKaz

Well-Known Member
11 April 2020
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This is my take on what you have said.

1 false statements... background not being in contention.

Contentious elements in cases are elements of a rule that gives rise to a claim of action. Simply said, contentiousness is determined by a rule or principle. if a rule doesn’t give rise to question of facts in a case, or facts to do not give rise to a question of rule then there is usually no contention. For instance ‘ if a person is walking at night they are guilty of a crime’ as a rule. If a person then drives during night, does the rule apply given they were driving? The contention is in the word walking.

In your case the background info did not give rise to a question of a rule so the decision maker moved on.
The statements made were not necessarily ‘false statements’ if the background info was not in question. As you said “"It's agreed by the parties..." No, it's not agreed by the parties!
It's a flat out lie, is it not?” Perhaps the background info was indisputable or you didn’t argue your point clearly.

2 Relevance example.
Without more knowledge about the material facts of your case it’s hard to determine what would be a relevant case fact in your case. If as you say the computer was the start of the so called issue, I would need further info to say that yes it should not be or yes it should be omitted... depending on the facts there may be reason for appeal. It depends.

3 one sided decision makers?
You stated that the decision maker said:"Absent any further detailed analysis of the relevant provisions by the applicant, I decide so and so"
they are basically saying that the applicant has not brought forward enough information or provided appropriate argument on the given material facts to apply the provisions of a rule in greater detail.
In short they are, in my opinion, saying that given what’s been said and what arguments have been presented and by no more, I’ve chosen this. It may imply that they knew something was missing or that they simply have chosen to decide on the matters brought before them and how persuasive the arguments were. It is not that they chose to omit something but that they may not have been presented with enough detail to decide on one matter rather than on the other.

4 you have referenced the “Sect 577 (a) of the FWA: The FWC must perform its functions and exercise its powers in a manner that is fair and just;
Is above considered fair and just?”

fair and just can probably be read down given it’s subjectivity and attempt to find an objective meaning to those terms. Just might mean a settled outcome. Fair might mean equal resources or equal opportunity to present a case etc. It just depends on the context of the Fair Work Act.
If a decision is just in the eyes of the decision maker than it probably is to be considered a just outcome, especially if all procedures are followed and parties relatively benefitted from the decision.

5 “Sect 578 of the FWA: In performing functions or exercising powers, in relation to a matter, under a part of this Act (including this Part), the FWC must take into account:
(a) the objects of this Act, and any objects of the part of this Act; and (b) equity, good conscience and the merits of the matter;

That didn't happen, did it?”

Again, more info is needed about the situation.
This section works to outline the purpose of the FWA in terms of the FWC’s powers.
I don’t want to go into too much detail about the FWA as it is a large act that needs to be read as a whole to determine it’s said purpose.

As a brief reference point look at division 2 for the objects clause

“The object of this Act is to provide a balanced framework for cooperative and productive workplace relations that promotes national economic prosperity and social inclusion for all Australians by:”
It has a whole bunch of subsections that determine how the act should be construed.

As for “b) equity, good conscience and the merits of the matter” what proof have you that this hasn’t been the case? Has one party reaped more than they have sewn? Unjustly benefitted from the decision?
 

Rob Legat - SBPL

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Complicated, technical concepts aside, it is extremely difficult to impossible to cherry pick individual aspects out of a case and give them contextual meaning against wide concepts like ‘contended facts’ and ‘fair and just outcome’.

As an over simplified example of what I mean: You might submit the event occurred during the day, while your opponent stated it was night. That would appear to make it contentious. However, if your submitted evidence is that when the event occurred you were returning home from work, your car headlights were on, it was winter, you were listening to your favourite ’drive time’ announcers on the radio, and you had trouble seeing the person step off the curb to cross the road - then the evidence you submitted accorded with the contention that it was night, regardless of what you’ve actually expressly said. If this was a major point of contention, it would probably warrant a specific comment from the decision maker. Otherwise, they might just look past your actual statement and simply determine the fact that it was not day but rather night was not contentious on the evidence submitted.
 

Jack_G

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4 May 2020
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Thank you Rob and JazKaz, I appreciate your responses.

I think I understand what you mean about the contended facts.
  1. I wouldn't care about the facts that didn't matter in the case, even if the are in contention.
  2. Using the example about driving at night. Say I was in the car, but wasn't behind the wheel, I've submitted this information. But the decision maker says: "This information is primarily taken from the Applicant's submissions, it's not contested. The applicant was driving at night and didn't see the person step off the curb."
So, in relation to my case, decision maker used Respondent's submissions to establish background facts while ignoring Applicant's submissions.
And even dared to say that the background is taken primarily from the Applicant's submissions, and that it's not contested. The audacity.
 

Rob Legat - SBPL

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It's entirely possible the decision make meant the Respondent's submissions, not the Applicant's. I've seen that slip made on a number of occasions.
 

Rob Legat - SBPL

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If you're intending to appeal and it's relevant to the grounds of appeal, then it should be addressed as part of the appeal. Otherwise, no.