VIC 'Publishing on the Internet' - Breach of Intervention Order?

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Tangent Runner

Active Member
17 January 2018
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Re the link you posted - re mandatory and additional orders

- Again - can you read...?

6. The defendant must not approach or contact the protected person(s) by any means whatsoever,
except through the defendant's legal representative or as authorised by a parenting order under the Family Law Act 1975 unless the parenting order has been varied, suspended or discharged under s68R of the Family Law Act 1975.

Again.....

except through the defendant's legal representative

So what part of that don't you understand?
 

GlassHalfFull

Well-Known Member
28 August 2018
544
51
2,289
Out of interest Sammy:

1. How do you figure sharing a general story about father's rights is a breach if it wasn't ABOUT the protected person?

2. How do you figure that contacting her solicitor is a breach? The order says you cannot contact the protected person, it doesn't say you cannot contact the lawyer of the protected person (unless I missed that in the link you provided?)

3. How do you figure he breached simply by saying she works for Vic Police? I can't see anything on page 91 that suggests that, unless you mean he somehow identified "the physical description or the style of dress of the person". I don't see how you could interpret it that way. Not everyone that works for Vic Police dresses the same way, but I suppose many wear a police uniform while at work. But I have to say, as a side note, that is a ridiculous and Orwellian way of looking at identification.

I mean, if I said "the person I wish to identify dresses with a white shirt, blue tie", that doesn't give you enough information to identify which person I'm referring to, does it? Likewise, saying that someone works for Vic Police narrows the search down from 6 million people to 18,000 who wear a police uniform, but it sure as hell doesn't identify an actual individual based on style of dress, does it?

To think that someone could or should be arrested for such a vague description of a 'protected person' is ridiculous. And that's what we're faced with. Ridiculous laws that do not serve the public fairly or reasonably.
 

GlassHalfFull

Well-Known Member
28 August 2018
544
51
2,289
So I am self represented - so it's like lawyer to lawyer.... which CANNOT
mean published....and in any case - it was sent to her lawyer, not her,
and her lawyer passed it on - which given the lawyer knew about the
IVO - would have to make her guilty of aid and abet....

Yes I agree with you there. Although IVOs also say you cannot have someone else do something that you are not allowed to do yourself. So the question is, if you wrote to her lawyer with the intention that the sentiment was passed on to the lawyer's client (the protected person), that might be considered getting someone else to do what you are not allowed to. But this is just how ridiculous it can be when you try to interpret the vague wording of the law/order. You end up going down rabbit holes trying to chase clarity.
 

sammy01

Well-Known Member
27 September 2015
5,153
721
2,894
Yes mate - I can read. I can research too, something you could learn to do, so you didn't have to ask punters like me to do it for you, only to attack them for the effort... I provided you with a link.
Mandatory and additional orders

I thought you'd read the stuff.

Let me make it real simple for you:

"This means that you can't approach or contact the protected person by phone, text message, email, writing, through a third party, or in any other way, except through your lawyer, " I put the best bit in bold and underlined it - hope that makes it easier for you to read.

Oh, one more thing..."This means that you can't approach or contact the protected person by phone, text message, email, writing, through a third party, or in any other way, except through your lawyer,"
Yup wrote it twice, So you can read it twice. Now I accepted that my info came from NSW, not sure if same applied in Vic. Clearly, it does.

You can't contact her solicitor - only your solicitor can. It was written on the IVO. But you need me to explain that to you? What part do you not understand the bit about not contacting her, her hairdresser or her solicitor? Is that the bit you don't understand? or are you struggling to understand that I spent some time reading/researching to help you and instead of thanks, you go on the attack?

So insane - but you're not even allowed to contact the protected person's solicitor - you need a solicitor to do it on your behalf. Wow, talk about a system designed to fill the solicitor's pockets.

Glass Half Full.

1. Hey, I'm appalled. Basically, this bloke is breaching the avo by posting here. I'm not defending the legislation but he has referred to the ex. He is not allowed to talk about her. He has mentioned her, mentioned something about her job, it is all a breach. I know, trust me, I know but stop shooting the messenger. It is madness.

2. Yep, you missed it in the link. Scroll down to Orders made after 3rd December - then read point 6. "except through your lawyer". So this is an extension of the bit where a self representer can't question the accused in court. Again, I don't agree with the legislation, but ol' mate seems to be attacking me like I wrote the legislation.

3. Again, madness - and yep you're right, it wasn't on 91 - it is on page 92.
http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/D...6693BD7BA5ACA257797001BADA2/$FILE/10-053a.pdf
125 Identifying particulars For the purposes of sections 123 and 124, the particulars likely to lead to the identification of a person include, but are not limited to, the following—
(e) any employment or occupation engaged in, profession practised or calling pursued by, the person or any official or honorary position held by the person;

I agree it is insane but it states 'any employment" So when old mate says she works for Vic police - well that meets the criteria. The word 'likely' is subjective, but if the nutters pass laws that say you can't even talk about what people wear because that could identify them. Well, clearly it is crazy land... Again, don't agree with it. Just trying to explain it to someone that asked.

Oh and while you're there - read page 9.
publish means— (a) publish in any newspaper, or (b) publish by means of television, radio or the Internet;

Don't suppose I'll get thanks for finding a definition. But the legal definition of publishing is very broad and includes emails because that is done on the internet.

Old mate, you said you'd fight this to the end. Your choice. I hope you have a photo of your kids because that is as close to seeing them as you're gonna get. I hate saying it and I wish I didn't believe it. But hey if you're gonna attack a bloke who spent about 2 hours of his precious time finding information on the internet for you, well good luck to you. But with respect, maybe just maybe a little attitude re-adjustment might be in order.

Cheers
 

GlassHalfFull

Well-Known Member
28 August 2018
544
51
2,289
Well, my IVO says I can "communicate with a protected person through a lawyer or mediator". That's the exact wording. The link you cite seems to also quote the same thing "A lawyer" but then says that means "your lawyer". Which is strange, because it doesn't literally mean that. It seems that a lawyer -> your lawyer is an interpretation more than anything.

According to my reading of the order word for word, it doesn't specify whether it has to be lawyer to lawyer, or that it cannot be me to her lawyer - it only says that communication has to be through *a* lawyer. To my interpretation, it is saying that communication is allowed as long as it isn't directly between the accused and the protected person. For example, if she does not have representation, my lawyer could (and did in my case) contact her directly. And in fact they would have to, since there's no way to know in advance who represents a person until they respond via that lawyer.

As for the legislation that says you cannot mention anything employment related that may identify the protected person, it seems you are right. But I think the word "likely" probably is pretty relevant here. Surely it's more of an issue if you say "she's the lady at the reception working at the mechanics garage on 420 Elizabeth Street, Melbourne", then that's pretty likely to identify her. But to say "she's one of the 18,000 employees of Victoria Police", I'm not sure it's really an identifiable piece of information. Sure, I take your point, he shouldn't have said it because it certainly runs the risk of the Police using it to break his balls over it. But I doubt they would succeed in court over it. Just my gut feeling. IANAL that's for sure.
 

sammy01

Well-Known Member
27 September 2015
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2,894
So the link shows that in nsw the rules changed on 3 Dec 2016
Mandatory and additional orders

In the explanation of what the rules mean it stipulates through a solicitor. Mate I agree both our interpretations have merit. I guess the thing is real solicitors go to conferences, get up skilled get told how to interpret, meanwhile we're just average Joes behind a keyboard.

I do agree with the point above, if old mate contacted solicitor directly and accused the ex of abusing the kid, he may well have worded it badly and that would meet the criteria of using a 3rd person.
 

GlassHalfFull

Well-Known Member
28 August 2018
544
51
2,289
So the link shows that in nsw the rules changed on 3 Dec 2016
Mandatory and additional orders

In the explanation of what the rules mean it stipulates through a solicitor. Mate I agree both our interpretations have merit. I guess the thing is real solicitors go to conferences, get up skilled get told how to interpret, meanwhile we're just average Joes behind a keyboard.

I do agree with the point above, if old mate contacted solicitor directly and accused the ex of abusing the kid, he may well have worded it badly and that would meet the criteria of using a 3rd person.

Yeah, and in any case, the order says that even with any of the exceptions listed that you are allowed to do under the order, you can only do them IF you do not commit 'family violence', which I assume pretty much means anything that remotely hurts their feelings.

And yes you say that about the expertise of lawyers, but from my experience they are navigating a legal grey area like the rest of us, and are often just as surprised by how various government authorities deal with and interpret the law. It shouldn't be this way, but here we are with laws that protect 'perceived victims' at all costs, no matter what collateral damage is inadvertently done to fathers (largely) and their relationship with their children in the process.
 

Scruff

Well-Known Member
25 July 2018
902
133
2,389
NSW
What does "publish to the internet" specifically mean - legally .....!
Unless the relative legislation provides an explict definition, "publish" generally means to communicate to others.

In this instance, it would therefore mean "to communicate to others by uploading, posting etc to the internet" - posting on this site for example. Depending on the wording of the orders, they may or may not include private communications.

Let's look at the original question from this thread and in particular, the wording the OP quoted from the orders:
I have an intervention order and the protected persons are my ex and my two children. My IVO says I cannot "publish on the internet, by email or other electronic communication any material about the protected person(s)".
Note the words "by email or other electronic communication". The intention of this order is clear enough for a blind man locked in a dark room to see it. The word "email" is explicitly included and is immediately followed by the words "or other electronic communication".

Emails are private communications, therefore the intent of the order in regard to scope, includes both public and private communications. This therefore rules out posting or uploading to the internet, as well as email, SMS and MMS. The words "any material about the protected person(s)" is exhaustive in regard to subject matter and therefore rules out ALL electronic communications that are in any way related to the protected person(s).

So for the OP, who wanted to know if he would be in breach of the order if he posted pictures of his kids on Facebook, the answer is a very clear yes - he most definately would be in breach of the order. He can't even email the pictures (zipped or otherwise), or message them using his phone.

EXACTLY what defines the difference between publishing - and a private communication - on the internet....?
A private communication has one or more "explicit" intended recipients. So when you send an email, you dictate who the recipients are. More important though, whilst an email is transmitted through the internet, it is not retained at any point or published in any way so that third parties can see it. The intended audience for an email is therefore "static". The audience doesn't change, because like a conversation or mailing a letter, sending an email is a single non-persistent event - it happens once and then it's over. An email is therefore a private communication.

Posting on social media is never private. The first reason for this, is that the information is retained indefinately until it's deleted manually, or in some cases, by an atomated process after a certain amount of time has elapsed. So even though a social media post may be intended only for friends, or members of a group, those friends or members can change during the post's lifetime. The intended audience is therefore "dynamic", in that it can change over time. So due to having a dynamic audience, a post on social media can not be considered a private communication, because it's intended audience can not be explicitly defined in a static way.

To give an example, consider this scenario:
Bob creates a new Facebook profile and sets it up so that only friends can see what is posted on his page.
He adds Joe as a friend and they both post on Bob's profile.
At a later date, Bob adds Sam as a friend and Sam adds comments to those earlier posts.
Joe complains, claiming that those posts were private between Bob and himself.
Does Joe have a case?

The answer is "no". In order for a communication to be private, all parties must reasonably be able to expect to know who the intended parties to the communication are. In this case, Bob has sole control over who can see the posts on his own profile and Joe has no control over this whatsoever. Because the communication is persistent (retained on Bob's profile page) and Bob can change the intended audience at any time, the posts can not be considered private, because an essentential element for a private communication to exist is not present. As such, social media posts are always public.

So the main differences between "publish" and "private communication" relate to "retention and persistence" and "knowledge and consent". A private communication is a non-persistent event that is not retained in a way for others to see or hear unintentionally; and the intended parties are statically defined at the time the communication is made.

Published content on the other hand, is persistent in that it is retained in some form or another enabling other parties to see it in the future; the intended audience is dynamic; and usually only one party has control over who the intended audience is and can change that audience during the lifetime of the communication.

Additionally, the name "social media" itself is also relevant, as the purpose of all social media platforms is to provide a way for people to "share information". Social media in general, is not intended to be used for secure private communications - and it never has been.

A good analogy is postal mail and notice boards. Email is like postal mail - but without the inconvenience of having to queue up at the post office. You can send a letter directly from your letterbox to the recipient's letterbox. It is always considered a private communication because all intended parties to the communication are always explicitly identified.

Social media is like a notice board in a workplace, school, shopping centre, etc. No matter where the board is located, only a limited number of people will be able see it. But ultimately, you don't control who comes into the building or when - that's controlled by the owner or whoever. Therefore, anything put on the notice board, is always considered public, even though the intended audience is limited by the board's location.

Possible exceptions to the rule for social media would be instant messaging and live chats where the participants are invited to join. Those types of communications are intended to be private amongst the participants.

Re the facebook pages - I blocked everyone associated with her, but she recruited a spy - in the form of the partner of a mate I was staying with - to take screen shots of the privately shared stuff on facebook, and send it to her
This is similar to the "notice board" example, but she could have asked anyone that your friends with to just look at your profile and get the info that way. I'm actually surprised that she risked using someone you were living with - she's not very smart for a cop. But either way, it shows how you don't really have any control at all over who sees your social media posts.

she unlawfully accessed my Gmail account and programmed it to forward emails to her - this fact is obvious from the exhibits in the brief
In NSW, this falls under computer offences in the Crimes Act. I would assume that Victoria has something similar that makes this is a pretty serious criminal offence. If she's a Police officer and you have evidence of this, I'd be reporting it to the corruption watchdog. For Victoria, that would be the Independent broad-based anti-corruption commission | IBAC

Um.... "She"...... is not a protected person named in the IVO....
there are a lot of females working for vic pol..... So I beg to differ..... unless "About" is anything that resembles a potentially an obscure reference to...."She" who shall not be named....
I totally agree with your principle here, but you're on shaky ground because of your particular circumstances. To breach the order by posting in this forum, it must be reasonable to accept that the people on this forum know who you are talking about without being told. As far as I can tell, there's nothing here that enables me or anyone else to know that, unless someone here knows you or her personally.

But there's no guarantee here, because anyone could stumble across these pages - even through Google. If you signed up to this site using your real name, then anyone who knows either of you could easily see what you have posted and know straight away exactly who you are talking about. So given that you got in trouble for emailing her lawyer (which I think is outright ridiculous by the way), posting here could get you into even more trouble. You need to remember, this site is 100% public - anyone in the world can see what you post, even if they are not a member.
 
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GlassHalfFull

Well-Known Member
28 August 2018
544
51
2,289
So for the OP, who wanted to know if he would be in breach of the order if he posted pictures of his kids on Facebook, the answer is a very clear yes - he most definately would be in breach of the order. He can't even email the pictures (zipped or otherwise), or message them using his phone.

Thanks for your post. Yes, I agree, on a literal interpretation of the law/order, then yes it would be a breach. I don't think there's any way to avoid that conclusion. The stupid thing is that communicating with your lawyer by email about your case is also a breach when you take it literally. There's nothing in the legislation to the best of my knowledge that excludes this as a breach. It says you can communicate WITH the protected person via a lawyer, but you cannot communicate about the protected person with your lawyer.

This is why the law is so damn stupid. You're expected to take it at its word, literally, and it consequently takes you to a legal position that I am certain the legislators never considered. It's a lot easier to make the bloody law than it is to follow them to the letter. And nobody cares enough to fix it, it would seem. It's likely that nobody would enforce a breach of communicating about the protected person with your lawyer, but you're still inevitably at risk if some jobsworth has proof and wants to make a mountain out of a molehill over it, and you'd have no legal leg to stand on because "you were warned and you didn't take the order seriously". Bah.

The answer is "no". In order for a communication to be private, all parties must reasonably be able to expect to know who the intended parties to the communication are. In this case, Bob has sole control over who can see the posts on his own profile and Joe has no control over this whatsoever. Because the communication is persistent (retained on Bob's profile page) and Bob can change the intended audience at any time, the posts can not be considered private, because an essentential element for a private communication to exist is not present. As such, social media posts are always public.

Right. But given the internet is used for almost everything these days, including one's private life like photos automatically uploaded to the cloud by one's phone, it is almost impossible to avoid "publishing to the internet" things that may contain information about a protected person, especially if they are your children. I mean, a lot of computer backup solutions are often cloud based these days. That's also publishing to the internet. And I see your point about social media's sharing/publishing settings being adjustable.

But almost everything on the internet is like that these days. All it takes for something private on one's cloud account to be shared is a private link. One may assume it's totally safe and secure but it isn't. A law that essentially criminalises storing your own data in a private account in the cloud is Orwellian. But again, that's what the law says is a crime, when you follow it to its logical conclusion.
 

Scruff

Well-Known Member
25 July 2018
902
133
2,389
NSW
Well, in regard to ridiculous laws, take a look at these:
https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/~/view/act/1900/40/part3/div10/subDiv13/sec79
https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/~/view/act/1900/40/part3/div10/subDiv2/sec61i

So raping a person in NSW has the same penalty as getting it on with your dog. This nonsense is just shameful.

This is still one of my all time favorites though:
https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/~/view/act/1900/40/part14a/div1/sec521a
6 months plus $550 for stealing a pebble or a handful of dirt is just hilarious!

It's not hard to see that our Crimes Act dates back to 1900.
 
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