VIC IO taken out in Vic against QLD Respondent for alleged event in NSW

[247mum]

Hi everyone.

Just wondering if anyone has any advice. I'll try and keep it brief. This is for a friend, not me.
Friends version can be substaniated with witnesses or evidence.

• Male friend (respondent) had casual relations with a female (applicant) from late 2018 in QLD.
• Applicant moved 2 doors from Respondent in March 2019 as she wanted to see him more.
• Around April 2019 Applicant started to become quite possessive - incessant messages / calls / abuse when phone not answered / wanting to stay at his place or him to stay at hers and so on.
• Around May 2019 Applicant threatened suicide, was self-harming and blaming applicant "look what you made me do"
• Around June 2019 Applicant attempted suicide 3 times, calling applicant. Applicant took Respondent home and cared for her as no family in QLD. Contacted family. Family came from Vic, but Applicant refused to leave Respondent.
• July 2019 Respondents birthday. Applicant booked hotel suite in NSW under Respondents name and got Respondent to pay. Arrived evening of day 1 - no incidents but Applicant had no money so respondent having to pay for her.
• Early evening day 2 Applicant started to abuse Respondent as he as on the phone to his dad in UK and she thought it was an ex-girlfriend. Respondent returned to room alone. Applicant finished drinks and returned to room. Applicant started hitting respondent. Respondent did not hit back - locked himself in bathroom. Applicant called a friend and passed the phone through the door to respondent. Respondent spoke to her friend and asked her to come and get Applicant. Maybe 20 mintues later Respondent thought she had left and came out of bathroom. Respondent jumped out crash tackiling him onto the bed. She then proceeded to strangle him with his hoodie. Reposndent was blacking out and hit her temple with the outside edge of his left hand made into a fist a few times. She fell off crying that he hit her. He did not see that there was any significant damage or he would have made sure she had medical treatment. He gave her $100, told her to pack her things and leave and never contact him again. He left the room and called his friend to come.
• When his friend arrived maybe 45 minutes later they went to the room. Applicant had left but had smashed up the room. They don't have photos. They had to fix cupboard doors and doors that were broken off their hinges.
• Applicant moved back to Victoria a couple of weeks later.
• Respondent blocked social media and phone numbers and has had no contact since mid July 2019.
• Respondent got engaged late December 2019. Respondent deleted all photos of her on social media early January 2020 and posted about the engagement. Discovered her best friend is still following him on Insta in Feb 2020.
• 16 January 2020 Applicant has lodged a complaint with Vic Police that Respondent attacked her and left her with significant injuries. This cannot be substantiated. She has admitted in writing to friends at the time she strangled him.
• Vic Police have taken out an IO at this time against the Respondent. (they are the actual applicants on the IO paperwork even though I've referred to her as the applicant)
• Feb 2020 - went to court in Victoria (respondent didn't even know about this) Interim Order made.
• Feb 2020 Respondent Served - Next hearing April 2020. It looks like he will have to go to Victoria to clear his name.

My questions mainly are:
1. Do Vic Police need recent grounds to take out an Intervention Order?
2. Respondent works in an occupation wherby this looks bad on his record. Is it possible to ask to get it removed as Respondent is not a threat and never was?
3. Respondent also is not able to go shooting, which is a social hobby for him. The fact that she has made this complaint in January 2020 appears to be weaponizing of DV legislation.
4. Is there anything that Respondent can do about this to maybe take an IO to stop her contacting him or doing things to negatively impact his life? He is fearful that she will keep coming up with things and she has not gone away as he thought. He also does not want her causing further trouble with his job, hobbies, social life, or new relationship.
5. Any tips on what to take to the hearing / how best to handle this withthe court once he gets there? He won't be talking to her or going near her if she turns up.
5. Anything else that anyone can help with or suggest is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for reading such a long post - hopefully it makes sense. Very grateful for any assistance and tips anyone has. Thank you

 

[sammy01]

Bugger - This was easy to solive until question 3. My advice probably isn't gonna change all that much anyways.
My advice would be accept without admission. (kinda)
WHY?
Well - it is gonna cost money to challenge it. There will be adjournments, solicitors fees, flights to Vic only to have the thing adjourned - blah blah blah. There was one thread on this site where a guy tried to defend it... It took nearly 18 months to get to a trial. The avo was for 2 yrs. I can't remember how it finished up. But it would have been easier to accept without admission and move on because until the final hearing the interim avo will stick.

So Question 1 - Yep. But clearly the applicant concocted a sufficently good story to have the cops convinced. Sadly, we live in a cover your own arse universe. Copper is scared that if he refuses the application and the applicant gets murdererd on her way home from the cop shop, the copper will lose his job. Same problem with the magistrate. This is not an innocent until proven guilty world. Nor is it a 'beyond reasonable doubt' world.... DV in NSW is based on 'the balance of probability". That is what the law states. What the Fcu* is 'probable? is it probable that Elvis works at my petrol station? suppose so, there is an old guy there with huge side burns.

Q2. What sort of job. I'm a teacher, didn't impact on me when my ex took one. I do think it is only a problem if you're in a profession that requires a gun licence.

Q3. Take up bird watching. Sorry to be blunt.

Q4. Sure could make a cross application. Throwing fuel on a fire is my thinking on this one. But there is some good news here. STORY TIME - My nutter (oops I mean ex) took one of these on me. It was horrible. With in days she was calling me. I had kids with her so I answered incase one of the kids was sick.... I told her I wasn't allowed to talk to her. She told me she knew that. So I needed to shut up and listen... She told me exactly what I was gonna have to do if I wanted to see the kids. It was harassment. (BTW spoiler alert - kids now live with me 80% of the time). so I went to the cops, showed them my mobile phone records, the crazy text messages etc etc. Now I had enough to get a cross AVO on her. It would only make her mad.... But the cops called her up and gave her a stern talking too... Explained that she can't cry wolf etc etc... All of a sudden this AVO thing was great. A whole year where I wasn't allowed to hear her stupid voice... No kiss and make up, nope. RELATIONSHIP OVER - GOOD.

Q5. Anything else... THIS SUXS. Read the pdf below. Granted it is a QLD document BUT this stuff is pretty similar around the country. It is advice on how to help respondents in dv cases.... 29 pages... AND only 2 dot points about how to defend the thing.... Oh and it seems to suggest he will need to provide evidence that he is innocent (pg 16) rather than her having to provide evidence of his guilt. So as soon as he admits to hitting her he is stuffed, the whole but I was being strangled defence will only fly IF she admits to it. (yeah right- not likely). Once you have a read get back to us. But there are a few things I noticed in my quick read...
1. It assumes men are perpetrators and women victims. So when my nutter (oops I mean ex) threw coffee cups at me, it was a sign of affection. But when I grabed her wrists to stop her punching me, I was committing DV? WTF?
2. There is stuff all advice on defending one's self against false allegations. In fact it seems to work on the assumption that every poor bastard whose missus calls the cops is guilty.
3. INSANE - The best course of action for your mate is to accept without admission, then ask to do a course where IF he admits he has anger management problems the court might be persuaded to shorten the lenght of the avo (pg 16). So rock up to a course, cry, say he is so ashamed of himself. cry some more. Promise to mend his ways... Far out.

https://communitylegalqld.org.au/si...sisting_respondents_in_dv_matters_-_final.pdf

Anything else? hmm... Look he can accept without admission at any point in time... Maybe attend the first mention. Speak to a solicitor. I believe that SHE should be in attendance. If she doesn't show, that might give reason to be positive. If she fails to show the thing might get dropt on the first or second mention. It is a chance she won't show because she might not fancy being scrutinised over her accusations. Now I know that document is QLD law and this is a Vic case... But one thing I picked up on is that appealing it comes with additional court costs (p18)... Oh and my favorite... if the respondent can't afford legal representation, sure you can self-represent... BUT you can't cross examine the applicant. So that means o'l mate cant ask her if she tried to strangle him. So how does the magistrate get to know those facts? the answer is the magistrate doesn't....

give ol mate a hug for me. I feel his pain.
cheers

 

[247mum]

Thanks so much Sammy01 for your massive reply & humour. Sadly I am hearing you on pretty much every point. I guess that's why I'm reaching out - to see whether the experts on here think it's spending $$$ on a wild goose chase and further anguish or if anyone has a 'good news' story.

just to clarify where I typed "Respondent jumped out crash tackiling him onto the bed"... should have read "Applicant jumped out crash tackling him onto the bed.."

Q2 Works in security and corrections system - DVO/IO looks bad on security clearance and record & perception of being a "woman beater" (for want of better terminology) exposes him to risk of persecution in that environment. Whilst a weapons licence is not required for his current position, it could be with future career options. She is aware of this.

Q3 Apparently gelblasters don't need a weapons licence lol. Sadly we all go shooting at a local club, kids come too, we go away for weekends... it's a bit of a social thing.. She is aware of this. I guess sitting outside watching his bird shoot is bird watching lol?

Q4 Yes - concern is that she has not forgotten about him & is now trying to damage his life because he rejected her.. he just wants her to never contact him again. He blocked her that night and has made no attempt to contact her since.
He is absolutely no threat to her and never was. I was away overseas at the time of the incident and when I returned he was severely traumatised about the strangling and a complete mess in all honesty.

Q5. We have a copy of a SMS she sent to a mutual friend at the time admitting to choking him and that he then hit her. He doesn't deny this - in fact this is exactly his version of events. She also had a conversation with the mutual friend admitting this. The version she gave police in January is nothing like this - he beat her up essentially. . Mutual friend is in QLD... can get affidavit. Not sure if court would require her to go in person or can teleconference...
Also have other friends can testify to bruising and scratches on his face and neck the following day.
He also has psychologist reports for him at the time & her psychiatrist / hospital / landlady have reports about her self-harm and suicide attempts.
3.There is no way he is going to accept it with or without admission and have it on his reputation without challenging it.
He thought he had got rid of her. He really views this as an attack on him and effectively further domestic violence towards him.

She didn't attend the hearing in February (that he didn't even know about). I think (hope for his sake) it unlikely that she will attend the next hearing in April. Anyone know if they may make a final order / rescind the order (or available outcomes) at this time if she doesn't show?


Reading through the document above I am also noting the following:

• (e) in circumstances in which there are conflicting allegations of domestic violence or indications that both persons in a relationship are committing acts of violence, including for their self-protection, the person who is most in need of protection should be identified; (p9)
• If any evidence of DV can be presented by either the aggrieved or the prosecution the court will make a final protection order which, pursuant to the legislation, will be in force for 5 years. (p10)
• Under section 10B of the Weapons Act a respondent can not apply for a weapons licence for a period of 5 years from the date of the protection order and an existing licence is suspended. Weapons must be surrendered to the police. (p14)

I agree wholeheartedly with you about the assumptions... "Also where the aggrieved gives her written consent ..) (p15)

Thank you for your time and consideration

 

[sammy01]

Ok, so my thinking v2.
Attend the court on the dates. IF she shows, accept without admission. If she doesn't then it might be worth defending because if she continues to fail to show they'll dismiss. He can accept at any time. So if she does show up, then accept. Not worth throwing thousands of $$$ at solicitors. See the problem with defending is it will take a long time. It will cause lots of stress and ultimately the only real chance (OPINION) in getting it dropt is from her not showing.

Some good news. (check with relevant union)... The police check isn't stapled to the wall in the lunch room at work. So I'd be confident that no one at work will find out.

Ok so admission of her choking him just shows that she was violent. It doesn't erase the possibility that he too was violent. Remember 'balance of probabilities'. All that stuff is hearsay. Part of the issue here is that DV happens behind closed doors. The legislation is designed to protect those who have been abused by their partner. It is a good thing (kinda). But the sad reality is that it does mean that some innocent punters get caught up in this mess and it is sole destroying. Trust me I know. Having to sit opposite my parents and explain that I had to court was a bloody tough day in my life.

 

[247mum]

Thank you. Will take your comments on board - sounds like a good strategy.
Yes.. He was in a 2 year relationship immediately prior & 11 year relationship prior to that. No history of dv in either relationship. On the other hand she apparently only had violent exes.. I think the worst thing is knowing you’ve done the right thing, but that the system will persecute you anyway. It does seem that’s she’s weaponising dv legislation. I think we will gather statements, and character references from all his female friends too. Can’t hurt. Thank you again.

 

[John R]

Q3. Take up bird watching. Sorry to be blunt.