Poidah, if it were true that doing a silly course that you don't necessarily need would get you access to your kids faster, I'd probably recommend it. But I don't see any way it would have helped in my case. My ex was not interested in hearing that I was "reformed". She wanted me out of her life and out of our kids' lives. She even said so in a Family Report. She said if she had it her way, our kids would have nothing to do with me until they were old enough to make their own decision to see me. In the real world, that's probably teenage years or adulthood. They're 18 months and 4 years old currently. So you can see what a self-centred piece of work I'm dealing with here. In my case, family court was the only way to take the power out of her hands (at least a little bit), and I'm finally starting to make headway 2 years later. I had to go through supervision for 9 months, and my ability to work full time suffered, but I'm finally getting to a point where I have a normal relationship with my children again. I still want 50/50 and I know realistically that's a long way off (both in their ages, and the ability of my ex and I to communicate and put the children's interests first). But that's where I'd like to get to, eventually.
VIC IVO allegations
- Thread starter Gameofthrones
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If you already had supervision, which I take to mean supervised visits, then you know the drill.
Unfortunately supervised is likely the way forward until the court order comes through. Challenge the IVO, or go through the court process, it will take months. But if you already had 9 months of supervised visits, then get the documentation to support your IVO defence. However, if mean supervised visits is the one with a friend, then that is not really supervised visits. A friend does not get the DV lingo. A friend is unable to take on the legal responsibility to "risk assess" your behaviour and counter the allegations of violence. The courts nor anyone would put any weight on a friend's opinion as they are not professionals etc etc. The more "official" assessments or backers that can reduce that perceived risk of violence from you, the better. The courts want a string of professionals and a series of reports of people who have observed your behaviour with your wife and kids. So if things becomes public, they can spread the blame with other agencies/professionals, and they can argue that all steps were taken to reduce any DV risks.
Demonstrating that you are putting their interests first is paramount.
Hopefully you can gather evidence of severe harm to the kids, by you not having parental contact with them. Which activities will they miss out on? What things have been missed and will need your face to face monitoring? What risks will the IVO expose to the children, if they are not in contact with you? Are there any medical or educational issues that are ideally severe and urgent that your ex have been shown to have done poorly that you can objective evidence of? etc etc
May be an alternative if you're dealing with a reasonable parent .... In both @GlassHalfFull & @Gameofthrones case the inclusion of kids as protected persons were specifically to deny access... so remind me again how a parent such as that is going to agree to supervised visits unless compelled by order? ..... & how you can even have a supervised visit with a child who you can't have contact with because of an IVO?
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Atticus, my lawyer told me that when children are named on the IVO and there is the line in it that allows you to contact the ex to "negotiate child arrangements by letter, email or text message" then that gives you the ability to draw up a written agreement to allow supervision or some other contact agreement without needing an order to do so. But that does seem to contradict the IVO that doesn't allow any contact at all, and also contradicts what I've been told elsewhere which is that even if the ex agrees to something, that doesn't mean you can breach the IVO (ie she invites you over for a cup of tea or to say hi to the kids, you turn up, she calls the police and they arrest you, even though SHE ASKED YOU to come). I wonder if the exception is written agreement about contact with the children? Either way, in my case, she wouldn't agree to anything and I needed family court orders.
Poidah, you appear to be getting confused between me and the OP. I'm already well beyond supervised visits now. I have full unsupervised access now thankfully and the IVO is expired. I'm only speaking from my experience having been through similar things to the OP.
Poidah, you appear to be getting confused between me and the OP. I'm already well beyond supervised visits now. I have full unsupervised access now thankfully and the IVO is expired. I'm only speaking from my experience having been through similar things to the OP.
True sorry. I think OP does not appreciate the significance of supervised visits, and how it can still work despite a hostile IVO. Many supervising centres are trained and able to articulate the issues. So, a formal refusal to supervised observed visits, with regular reports by third party professionals is a useful option.
That is true, certainly. But in my case, it was extortionately expensive and very limiting. $100+ per hour (closer to $150/hr on weekends), plus nearly $1000 for a report detailing approximately 4-5 months of supervision. It certainly isn't going to be viable for everyone. I struggled to pay for it.
Or as agreed in writing.
www.lawaccess.nsw.gov.au
So the problem is you can't write to her until she agrees. That means you need a solicitor to write to her to ask if she would agree to contact via text for the purposes of getting time with kids. So solicitor can write making a proposal for access times. But if the ex disagrees or doesn't respond you're stuffed.
Money well spent to get a solicitor to write to ask for a temporary agreement. She might agree. She probably wont. But at least you know where you stand.
Mandatory and additional orders
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Money well spent to get a solicitor to write to ask for a temporary agreement. She might agree. She probably wont. But at least you know where you stand.
I think Poidah's idea to be open to third party help is reasonable, even though I totally understand that it may feel galling to be getting involved in 'counselling' when you may in fact be the victim. Considering the 'control' is the magic word in alot of Dv/FV claims these days, making it a criminal act for you to see you kids, or say hello to them at the shops is pretty damn controlling I'd have thought! Anyway....
The financial impacts of supervision etc are a valid concern, but taking other opportunities for counselling or separation/parenting programs demonstrates to 'the system' that you're open to learning and don't hold a rigid view of your own infallibility. Also as Poidah suggests, at a minimum you will get familiar with the 'DV Lingo'- we've seen how open to interpretation the definition of DV is, so anything you can do to educate yourself and not fall into a trap based on a few poorly chosen words is helpful.
Can only offer experience from the Family Court (WA) side of things (though a Family Violence matter was running concurrently at the time). After the initial Case Assessment Conference, Family Consultant had recommended BOTH PARENTS engage in a series of programs, and also some for the children. By the following conference, Father had either commenced or completed all programs and taken kids to the recommended programs (fitting it in to low amounts of care he had at the time). Mother had done none. Although the case was resolved at a later conference, the consultants notes still recorded that, father had done all programs and conversely participation in any of these programs "did not seem to be a priority for the mother". I wonder if the language would have been stronger if the case had continued. My point being, people whose opinion matters note these things. Father's counselor did warn him that their clinical notes could be subpoenaed though, FYI.
The financial impacts of supervision etc are a valid concern, but taking other opportunities for counselling or separation/parenting programs demonstrates to 'the system' that you're open to learning and don't hold a rigid view of your own infallibility. Also as Poidah suggests, at a minimum you will get familiar with the 'DV Lingo'- we've seen how open to interpretation the definition of DV is, so anything you can do to educate yourself and not fall into a trap based on a few poorly chosen words is helpful.
Can only offer experience from the Family Court (WA) side of things (though a Family Violence matter was running concurrently at the time). After the initial Case Assessment Conference, Family Consultant had recommended BOTH PARENTS engage in a series of programs, and also some for the children. By the following conference, Father had either commenced or completed all programs and taken kids to the recommended programs (fitting it in to low amounts of care he had at the time). Mother had done none. Although the case was resolved at a later conference, the consultants notes still recorded that, father had done all programs and conversely participation in any of these programs "did not seem to be a priority for the mother". I wonder if the language would have been stronger if the case had continued. My point being, people whose opinion matters note these things. Father's counselor did warn him that their clinical notes could be subpoenaed though, FYI.
Actually that is a good point that I forgot. Clinical notes and counselors can be subpoenaed, but if you are willing to be on the books etc, it can only help your case. Anonymous discussions and education can be helpful. Some psychologists and DV counselors are happy to manage people on an anonymous basis due to the risk of subpoena, as long as they have details of your GP or usual therapists that can take action if something serious happens.
Fair enough ..... my point was more about the fact that if you have an ex who has taken out a vexatious FVO including kids, then any agreement for visits unsupervised or otherwise is highly unlikely
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