NSW Consent Orders - Are Proposal Orders Made Fair?

[MummyOf2]

1. The child live with the mother.

2. The child spend time with the father during NSW gazetted school terms in a two week rotation as follows:

a. WEEK 1: Tuesday from after school until Thursday before school.

b. WEEK 2: Friday from after school until Monday before school.



3. The child spend time with the father during NSW gazetted school holidays as follows:

a. The first week of all school holiday periods following terms 1, 2 and 3 from 9am on the first Sunday of the school holiday period until 9am on the following Sunday of the school holiday period.

b. During the Christmas holiday period commencing 9am the first Sunday of the school holiday period until 9am the following Sunday and each alternate week thereafter until school returns.



4. The child spend additional time with the father as follows:

a. From 6pm Christmas Eve until 2pm Christmas Day on even numbered years.

b. From 2pm Christmas Day until 6pm Boxing Day on odd numbered years.

c. On the child’s birthday from after school until before school on school days or from 3pm until 9am the following morning on non school days.

d. On the fathers birthday from after school until before school on school days or from 3pm until 9am on non school days.

e. From after school Friday until before school Monday on the weekend that comprises Father's Day.

f. From after school (or 3pm if a non school day) the Thursday proceeding Good Friday until 3pm Easter Saturday in odd numbered years.

g. From 3pm Easter Saturday until 3pm Easter Monday in even numbered years.



5. The child’s time with the father shall be suspended as follows:

a. From after school Friday to before school Monday on the weekend that comprises Mother's Day.

b. On the mother's birthday, from after school to before school the next day if on a school day; or from 3pm to 9am the following day if a non-school day.



6. The parent with whom the child is not spending time with is at liberty to communicate with the child by telephone on Tuesdays and Thursdays between 7:30pm and 8pm, and the parent with whom the child is spending time shall ensure the child is available to accept the call and has privacy for the duration of the call.



7. Changeovers shall take place at the child’s school, or if a non school day, changeovers shall take place at the fathers place of work and shall be conducted in a brief and polite manner with the father to be primarily in attendance.

In the event that a third party is collecting the child from school, the child must be collected from the schools administrative office. In the even the father is not able to attend changeover, the father's agent attending to the changeover shall refrain from approaching the mother in any way.



8. The father shall have responsibility for day-to-day decisions and the child’s welfare when the child is in his care; and the mother shall have responsibility for day-to-day decisions and the child’s welfare when the child is in her care.



9. The parents shall communicate via e-mail, or case of an emergency via SMS, and all communication shall be polite, respectful and only about the child.



10. Without admissions, each parent be restrained by injunction and endeavour to restrain all third parties from:

a. Discussing court proceedings with the child or showing the child court documents.

b. Discussing issues in dispute with the child.

c. Questioning the child about the other parents household, family or friends.

d. Denigrating the other parent or members of their family in the presence or hearing range of the child.

e. Consuming illicit substances or alcohol over the legal driving limit while the child is in their respective care.

f. Smoking in the presence of the child.



11. Each parent advise the other of the following:

a. Any changes to current address and/or phone numbers within 24 hours of such change occurring.

b. In the event of the child being hospitalized or receiving medical attention as soon as practicable after the first contact with either the medical practitioner, medical centre or hospital.

c. Any prescription medication or medical appointment which must be tended to during the child’s time with the other parent, and that parent shall ensure the child adheres to these requirements.

d. Any school or extra-curricular activities or meetings at which parents would ordinarily attend.

e. Any intention to travel with the child outside of the state of New South Wales, with such notice to be provided with a travel itinerary at least two weeks prior to the first date of the intended travel.



12. Both parents agree to go halves in the child’s school fee’s, book packs, uniforms, school travel expenses and excursions.



13. The parents shall not remove the child from the commonwealth of Australia without the written consent of the other parent, and where consent is granted, the travelling parent shall provide the non-travelling parent with travel itineraries and all relevant contact details pertaining to the trip.



14. The child is to remain an Australian Citizen and permanent resident of Australia until the age of 18.



15. The parents have equal shared parental responsibility and in the exercise of their shared parental responsibility, the parents shall consult and make a genuine effort to reach agreement jointly about major, long term decisions pertaining to the child’s care, welfare and development. Long term decisions include but are not limited to:

a. Major medical interventions.

b. Change of school.

c. Relocation of the child’s primary residence such that existing care arrangements become impractical.

d. Change of name.

e. Acquisition of a passport.

 

[MummyOf2]

I just realized I put a place of work in there when I copied and pasted. It won't let me remove it. Is there someone who can fix this asap?

 

[AllForHer]

The mods will amend this ASAP.

That looks pretty reasonable to me. I forgot to include this in my original suggestion, but you should perhaps include the following for clarity:

That the child's time with the father be suspended as follows:
- From 2pm Christmas Day until 6pm Boxing Day in even-numbered years; and
- From 6pm Christmas Eve until 2pm Christmas Day in odd-numbered years.
- From after school (or 3pm if a non-school day) the Thursday preceding Good Friday until 3pm Easter Saturday in even-numbered years; and
- From 3pm Easter Saturday until 3pm Easter Monday in odd-numbered years;
- If the child is in the father's care on the child's birthday, from after school until before school the following day if a school day, or from 3pm until 9am the following day if a non-school day.

Personally, I'm not a fan of suspension clauses in shared care arrangements, I find it clearer to simply say 'that the child spend from A to B with the mother and from B to C with the father in even numbered years, and from A to B with the father and from B to C with the mother in odd numbered years', but that is just personal choice.

Is dad self-represented?

 

[sammy01]

There is a whole lot of nonsense...Sorry to be blunt...

Can't drink, can't smoke. So how do you police this? Ask the child if dad smoked? Oh but then you would be discussing issues with child and you're not allowed to do that are you? And what if dad does smoke in front of the kid? Are you going to file an intervention order?

Smoking and drinking are not illegal activities, so lets pretend you do find out that he had a ciggie, or for that matter, smokes every day when the kid is there... If you take that to court, you'll find the judge will probably amend the orders so that dad can smoke...

So two thoughts -

1 - they are not enforcable
2 - It makes you look like some sort of control freak

Same with phone calls. If dad chooses to leave the phone off the hook when you're meant to call, what are you gonna do about it? Oh and it says at liberty to call. So what if the kid doesn't wanna call you?

Look it just becomes something that can cause dispute and has no real resolution. I've found it best to just let the kids spend the time with their other parent without me having anything to do with it and vice versa.

Does dad pay child support? Does dad want 50/50? So you're not gonna agree with 50/50 shared care, why should he agree to pay half of school stuff?

So I'm thinking your proposal provides him with about 35% care. Maybe it is fair for him to pay 35% of the school costs. But then again, dad pays child support right? Well that is the end of his financial obligation to you... Use the child support money he pays you to get the school stuff.

So if it were me, I would agree to the school costs and then I would not give you the money. What are you gonna do, apply to court for a contravention? So a $300 court application fee because he didn't pay his $200 for books, uniforms etc? See how it is just another thing to cause agro about?

Ok - I'd also cut the summer holidays in half each alternate year you have the first half, etc... Less changeovers and while you miss seeing your kid every second Christmas, it does do better for the kids. Who wants to get toys Christmas morning only to have to leave at 2pm to go to the other parents?

Rant over

 

[MummyOf2]

Is dad self-represented?

No, he has a lawyer.

Can't drink, can't smoke.

It says no drinking over the legal driving limit, not that he can't drink at all. It also smoking in the presence of the child, not that he can't smoke. This is because they smoke in the house and car and my son sleeps in the caravan with his father and step mother while they smoke, I don't know about you but I think this is highly inappropriate not to mention smoking in the car with a child is illegal.

Same with phone calls. If dad chooses to leave the phone off the hook when you're meant to call, what are you gonna do about it? Oh and it says at liberty to call. So what if the kid doesn't wanna call you?

The father agrees with this, so it is not in dispute. He wanted it in there as much as I did.

Does dad pay child support? Does dad want 50/50? So you're not gonna agree with 50/50 shared care, why should he agree to pay half of school stuff?

The father pays bare minimum $14 a fortnight as he refuses to let child support know his wages. I don't care about the money anyway just to be clear. This part the father put in. I initially refused his help with school stuff, he went ahead and paid for most things anyway so I decided if I ask he only pay half then I will still get to pay for things and he can hold onto his money to spend on our son whilst our son is in his care.

Ok - I'd also cut the summer holidays in half each alternate year you have the first half, etc... Less changeovers and while you miss seeing your kid every second Christmas, it does do better for the kids. Who wants to get toys Christmas morning only to have to leave at 2pm to go to the other parents?

We agreed to a rotational holiday after he retained our son from my care during the Christmas holidays because his wife and mother in law decided they wish my son to remain there permanently. He has also been making my son ask me for week on week off so all parties are in agreement here already.

I am asking Christmas day be implemented the way it has because the father has expressed a desire to see our son every Christmas. This is the only way I can see that working.

 

[sammy01]

Ok - look - you came here looking for help... So according to your orders, what happens if dad does smoke in front of the kid? Or better still, how to you plan to police your .05 drinking limit while dad is at his home with the child? Ask the child? Oh that is right, your orders say no asking kid about what happens at the other person's house...

Story time -

I had an AVO against me... One of the conditions was no drinking alcohol when I had the kids... So kids go back to mum after a visit with me. My ex obviously asks the kids about their time with dad. So according to them, I was rolling around on the ground, barely able to get up and I was drinking from a bottle...All true.

I put up a slip and slide and hurt myself sliding down the thing. I had a bottle of soft drink. Now - for all that my ex decided I wasn't gonna see the kids. So my solicitor wrote to her solicitor, her solicitor wrote back, I got statements from people who were at the BBQ when I had the slip and slide, more letters back and forth. In all that piece of stupidity cost me a month of not seeing my kids and about $2000 in solicitors fees.

So what say your kid comes home and says dad smoked in his presence... What are you going to do about it? Or how are you gonna enforce your .05 drinking rule?

So while I agree with you that smoking in front of kids ain't good - What I am trying to get you to understand is that you have limited capacity to do anything much about it and as such, having such an order is really only gonna cause you grief and possibly cause additional conflict between you and the ex...

 

[AllForHer]

Look, I agree there are some clauses here that are not enforceable. Proving that dad was smoking or drinking is going to be near impossible - kids aren't reliable witnesses in Court, and dad isn't about to confess. Even if you could establish a contravention, it would cost thousands to pursue it and the outcome would probably either be a bond order or removal of the clause all together.

On top of that, the orders cut both ways. What if the kids tell dad you were inebriated, even if it didn't happen? That's just going to cause conflict over things that, in the greater scheme of things, are going to have less impact in the kids than if you and dad are fighting about them all the time.

Personally, I also don't think parenting orders should outlaw anything that isn't already outlawed. We have some stupid clauses in our consent orders, like using age-appropriate car restraints and not driving while above the legal blood alcohol level - both of which are enforceable by police anyway. They were included just to appease mum, but now, my husband is accused of driving without a car restraint for the child every time they mediate. All it does is whittle away a bit more at what is already a very untrusting co-parenting relationship.

So I think sammy01's opinion about leaving out the unenforceable orders is good. Some orders are unenforceable, so their only impact is creating unnecessary conflict.

 

[Trying68]

1. The child live with the mother.



2. The child spend time with the father during NSW gazetted school terms in a two week rotation as follows:



a. WEEK 1: Tuesday from after school until Wednesday before school with the father only attending upon school property.



b. WEEK 2: Tuesday from after school with the father only attending upon school property until 7:30pm with the father only attending upon the mothers property. From Friday after school until Monday before school with the father only attending upon school property.



3. The child spend time with the father during NSW gazetted school holidays as follows:



a. The first week of all school holiday periods following terms 1, 2 and 3 from 9:30am on the first Sunday of the school holiday period until 9:30am on the following Sunday of the school holiday period with the father only attending upon the mothers property.



b. A week on week off arrangement during the Christmas holiday period commencing 9:30am the first Sunday of the school holiday period until 9:30am the following Sunday and continued every second week thereafter with the father only attending upon the mother's property.



4. The child spend time with the father Christmas Day as follows:



a. From 6pm Christmas eve until 2pm Christmas Day on even numbered years with the father only attending upon the mother's property.



b. From 2pm Christmas day until 6pm Boxing Day on odd numbered years with the father only attending upon the mother's property.



5. The child spend time with the father on the child’s birthday as follows:



a. If the child’s birthday falls on a school day, overnight with pickup from school and return to school the next morning with the father only attending upon school property.

b. If the child’s birthday falls on a Friday or Saturday during the school term from 3pm with pickup from the school on Friday with the father only attending upon school property or from the mothers home on Saturday with the father only attending upon the mother's property until 9am the following morning with the father only attending upon the mothers property.



c. If the child’s birthday falls on a Sunday from 3 pm with the father only attending upon the mothers property and returned to school the following morning with the father only attending upon school property.



d. If during the fathers week during the school holidays, the child return home for 8 hours commencing 10am until 6pm with the father only attending upon the mothers property.



e. If during the mother's week during the school holidays for a period of 8 hours commencing 10am until 6pm with the father only attending upon the mothers property.



6. The child spend time with the father on the fathers birthday as follows:



a. If the father's birthday falls on a school day, overnight with pickup from school and return to school the following morning with the father only attending upon school property.



b. If the father's birthday falls on a Friday or Saturday during the school term from 3pm with pickup from the school on Friday with the father only attending upon school property or from the mothers home on Saturday with the father only attending upon the mother's property until 9am the following morning with the father only attending upon the mother's property.



c. If the father's birthday falls on a Sunday from 3 pm with the father only attending upon the mothers property and returned to school the following morning with the father only attending upon school property.



d. If the father's birthday falls on the mother's week during the school holidays for a period of 8 hours commencing 10am until 6pm with the father only attending upon the mother's property.



7. The child spend time with the father on Father's Day as follows:



a. If Father's Day falls on a school day, overnight with pickup from school and return to school the following morning with the father only attending upon school property.



b. If Fathers Day falls on a Friday or Saturday during the school term from 3pm with pickup from the school on Friday with the father only attending upon school property or from the mothers home on Saturday with the father only attending upon the mother's property until 9am the following morning with the father only attending upon the mothers property.



c. If Father's Day falls on a Sunday from 3 pm with the father only attending upon the mothers property and returned to school the following morning with the father only attending upon school property.



d. If Father's Day falls on the mothers week during the school holidays for a period of 8 hours commencing 10am until 6pm with the father only attending upon the mother's property.



8. That the child spend time with the father during the Easter long weekend for a period of 24 hours that the mother and father agree upon at their own discretion and with the father only attending upon the mother's property.



9. The child spend time with the mother on the mother's birthday and Mother's Day for a period of 8 hours commencing 10am until 6pm with the father only attending upon the mothers property if the mothers birthday or Mothers Day fall on a day that it is the fathers time with the child.



10. If it is the parents intention for the child to participate in weekly extra-curricular activities the parents will work co-operatively to facilitate the child’s attendance. Enrolment in extra-curricular activities requires consent from both parents.



11. At all other times as agreed between the parents and failing agreement at the mothers sole discretion.



12. The father have sole responsibility for the welfare and decision making of the child whilst the child is in his care and the mother have sole responsibility for the welfare and decision making of the child whilst the child is in her care.



13. Each parent have phone communication with the child on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays between the hours of 7pm and 7:30pm whilst the child is in the other parents household and with each parent ensuring the child is able to take the call and has privacy for the duration of the call.



14. Communication regarding the child occur between the parents only in person, followed up with a confirmation email and with phone communication only allowed in the event of an emergency.



15. Communication between the parents must relate to the child only.



16. Each parent remain civil to one another in the presence or hearing of the child.



17. Without admissions, each parent be restrained by injunction from the following:



a. Discussing court proceedings with the child or showing the child court documents and restraining all third parties from doing so.



b. Discussing issues in dispute between the parents with the child and restraining all third parties from doing so.



c. Questioning the child about the other parents household, family or friends whilst the child is in each parents household and restraining all third parties from doing so.



d. Denigrating the other parent or members of their family in the presence or hearing of the child or allowing the child to remain in the presence of a third party doing so.



e. Consuming illicit substances or alcohol over the legal driving limit while the child is in their respective care.



f. Smoking in the presence of the child.



18. Each parent advise the other of the following:



a. Current address and telephone numbers within 24hours of a change occurring.



b. In the event of the child being hospitalized or receiving medical attention as soon as practicable after the first contact with either the medical practitioner, medical centre or hospital.



c. Of any prescription or medical appointment that needs to carry over into the other household and with each parent ensuring the child continues to have access to these particulars.



19. Within seven days of the child’s subsequent enrolment at any school the mother will do all things necessary and give all authorities necessary to ensure that school forward directly to the father copies of all report cards, merits, and any written material pertaining to his academic and extra-curricular activities.



20. Both parents agree to go halves in the child’s school fee’s, book packs, uniforms, school travel expenses and excursions.



21. The mother must alert the father to all meetings regarding the child that may be held at the child’s school so that the father may attend.



22. Neither parent can take the child out of the country of Australia without the consent of the other parent and must provide the other parent with all documents pertaining to the trip.



23. Neither parent can take the child out of New South Wales without the consent of the other parent and must provide the other parent with all documents pertaining to the trip.



24. The child is to remain an Australian Citizen and permanent resident of Australia until the age of 18.

G'day

I just joined this site. I just can't believe how some parents are willing to make kids suffer so they can have self-satisfaction.

Good luck with everything - hope you have a good outcome

 

[Trying68]

I feel for you. What amazes me is that his mum, who has been there the whole time, has to fight the ex's wife & ex's mother-in-law.

The father wasn't around for quite a while. How could the courts consider custody? It isn't hard to see that they are only thinking of themselves. The system is a joke - not a funny one.

 

[Dad in trouble]

Just out of interest, what does the interim orders provide? Were they consent orders or court decisions?

What is different from the interim orders to your proposed final orders?

The answers to these might impact on what seems "fair" or "reasonable".