Equal Parental Rights (Medical) and possible differences of opinion on COVID-19 Vaccine

[PluralizesEverythings]

Hi,

Let me preface this by making it known that I am not an anti vaxxer, I am vaccinated for basically everything we can and should be and I have previously had my children vaccinated appropriately without hesitation. Science works and I have a pretty low opinion of the people who before this event, spouted mindless, unfounded and unsupported claims against vaccination.

However...

I am also a big believer in making informed decisions based on factual information, that is creditable, peer reviewed and taken in context. We've been led to a point where those who question the narrative should be labeled as a crazy conspiracy theorist, when in fact its crazy not to ask questions.

SO that said - here is my question:

I suspect my ex and I may have a difference of opinion about our children (5+7yrs) getting the COVID-19 vaccine, when/if that time arrives. We don't have a great relationship in general is probably the nicest way to put it.

At this stage, I am not confident that we should vaccinate them. I won't go into reasons and evidence and all that stuff here - This is a legal advice forum and I don't want this to turn into a pro/against covid vax thread. All I will say is that at this point, I am very much leaning against it based on my own research that I feel has met acceptable standards of credibility. Everyone is free to make their own choices and do their own research.

*If* my ex and I disagree on this issue, what is the protocol here?

I am happy to provide the evidence I am relying on to support my reasoning to her and to the courts at any point it is required - its obviously important to make clear that my concerns are based of sound, creditable evidence so as not to just be written off as "another one of those nutters", especially given that the courts will likely be well bias toward the "pro vaccine" narrative.

Again, I don't want this turning into a pro/against covid or vaccines in general discussion - I am trying to avoid any kind of conflict between her and I and this is simply a question about how I should approach the ex initially about this and should this not be an agreed issue, how do we proceed from there?

 

[sammy01]

The ex can take the kids to the doctor. The doctor will stick a needle in the kids. You can't stop this and once it is done it can't be undone. The doctor will never ask " does your ex agree" OR "is there a court order stopping me sticking this in your kids arm".

 

[Joe Black]

Hi,

Let me preface this by making it known that I am not an anti vaxxer, I am vaccinated for basically everything we can and should be and I have previously had my children vaccinated appropriately without hesitation. Science works and I have a pretty low opinion of the people who before this event, spouted mindless, unfounded and unsupported claims against vaccination.

However...

I am also a big believer in making informed decisions based on factual information, that is creditable, peer reviewed and taken in context. We've been led to a point where those who question the narrative should be labeled as a crazy conspiracy theorist, when in fact its crazy not to ask questions.

SO that said - here is my question:

I suspect my ex and I may have a difference of opinion about our children (5+7yrs) getting the COVID-19 vaccine, when/if that time arrives. We don't have a great relationship in general is probably the nicest way to put it.

At this stage, I am not confident that we should vaccinate them. I won't go into reasons and evidence and all that stuff here - This is a legal advice forum and I don't want this to turn into a pro/against covid vax thread. All I will say is that at this point, I am very much leaning against it based on my own research that I feel has met acceptable standards of credibility. Everyone is free to make their own choices and do their own research.

*If* my ex and I disagree on this issue, what is the protocol here?

I am happy to provide the evidence I am relying on to support my reasoning to her and to the courts at any point it is required - its obviously important to make clear that my concerns are based of sound, creditable evidence so as not to just be written off as "another one of those nutters", especially given that the courts will likely be well bias toward the "pro vaccine" narrative.

Again, I don't want this turning into a pro/against covid or vaccines in general discussion - I am trying to avoid any kind of conflict between her and I and this is simply a question about how I should approach the ex initially about this and should this not be an agreed issue, how do we proceed from there?

I am curious to find out if there is any legal caselaw in favour of not injecting the kids?

 

[Atticus]

I am curious to find out if there is any legal caselaw in favour of not injecting the kids?

None that I am aware of.
Below are three where the court ordered that the injections were in the kids best interests & the parent in favour was given sole parental responsibility for all future Covid injections

Trott & Brenton [2022] FedCFamC1F 366 (25 May 2022)
Cranston & Persson (No 2) [2022] FedCFamC1F 187 (25 March 2022)
Ingate & Swinton [2022] FedCFamC1F 222 (9 March 2022)

At least one where the opposing parent was also ordered to pay costs.

It seems the court is going to back in the advice of CMO's... You would have to present solid evidence that the kid is likley to suffer an adverse event that may change the risk/benefit ration in favour of not getting it.. Bad reactions to previous injections maybe a start.

 

[Adele93]

Sorry not an answer to your question just a comment. I think as Covid is clearly here to stay there needs to be some clear rules set by Family Court . We have an issue where the ex partner is vaccinated, as are I and the children. How ever the Ex new Partner and his children are not vaccinated to the point he lost his job because he refused to be vaccinated, and has had Covid twice. One of our children has chronic asthma. How ever , the advice I have received is that the children must still go on access even though there is a risk to the children . It would appear that Family Court orders take precedence .

 

[sammy01]

The answer seems pretty obvious. NO you can't compel someone else to vaccinate your kids. No you can't stop access because your ex's, partner and their kids are not vaccinated. Based on that logic, you should stop your kids attending school because there will be kids at school who are not vaccinated.
What your proposing - kids don't go because they will be near unvaccinated people hasn't been tested in family court. You're welcome to seek an answer by applying to have your orders changed. But i'm gonna bet you will lose because there are unvaccinated people everywhere. Why should your ex's place be treated differently to any other location ( a bus - for example) where people will be in an enclosed space, where social distancing cant happen...

 

[Been2Trial]

Well here's how that played out for me:

I notified the ex in writing multiple times months in advance that I was wanting to have a discussion about this issue and indicated to her that I was against having our daughter vaccinated for Covid. She ignored the messages for as long as possible and at the last possible moment she notifies me that she has arranged a meeting between her, her chosen local doctor and myself that will be happening the next day, at 2:00pm... which was not exactly conveinient for me, given I had to pick our daughter up from school at 3:00pm, approx 30mins drive from my place.

Nonetheless I agree to it, spend the entire night frantically putting together a list of questions that I would want a satisfactory answer to from any doctor who felt it was safe to inject a substance into my child and a bunch of links to peer reviewed studies that have been published, and have all my material ready on my laptop, where i have my email, my files, my documents, internet, links and everything i need to keep on track and stay articulate.

2:00 rolls around and I'm waiting for a call from my ex and the Dr to join a conference call... I message ex at 2:10 asking if its still going ahead and ex says "Dr xxxx is obviously just running late"..

ok... thats great, but Dr xxxx had an appointment with us at 2:00 and whilst I understand s**t happens, we made ourselves available to be here, I made myself available to be here, my ex made herself available to be here and if Dr xxxx was for some reason unable to be on time, then it would be appreciated if she could let her receptionist know and have her give us a call to let us know she was running late, or reschedule if need be.

So 2:30 rolls around and I message the ex and let her know I'm going to pick our daughter up from school, I will call the Dr's office on my way and let her receptionist know that the meeting didn't go ahead but I would be available between 9;15am - 1:30 pm any day that week for a reschedule.

Just as I send the message, ex calls with Dr already in conference on zoom and neither of them seem to give two hoots that Dr has finally graced us with her presence more than 30mins after the scheduled meeting start time. I again inform them both that I am jumping in the car to head for school pickup, to which I get the response "You can zoom in from your phone on your way there"...

Whaaaaaaaat? Are you serious? Zoom in on my mobile phone for a video conference whilst driving and try to get my points across while my mind is on the road and picking up our daughter, in a rushed, disorganised zoom confernece with two people I already have less than awesome feelings toward?

SO I inform them both that I would like to reschedule, must to the aghast and offence to the two of them, and I remind the Dr that we all have busy lives and that I dont care how many letters are in front of her name, she's still late and its still rude not to let others know this when you schedule their time in for a meeting.

So the next meeting comes around and Dr appears to have gotten the point, as she is on time this time.

The two of them had obviously become quite buddy buddy over time and were well in cahoots with this issue, with the meeting starting off with a little introduction from both of them taking a condescending tone. I bit my tongue and let the Dr finish off her little grandstanding about her position of being a Dr and knowing better than everyone else.

It was at about the 30second mark in when she told me she has had her 7yo and 12yo girls jabbed with a completely experimental vaccine that has demonstrated at the very very least a highly controversial and reasonably questionable background and safety profile with an unusual amount of noise being made by people much more qualified than her that I lost all respect for her as a Dr. I just hope her kids don't pay the concequences for it.

Once she had finished, I began rolling of my questions and concerns, sending through zoom a link that supported my position on each of those.
I understood that they could not be expected to read all of them right at that moment, so I let the Dr answer whatever she felt she could on the fly and I explained to the two of them that until those questions and concerns that I had were sufficiently rebutted and addressed, I was treating this as a potential life and death decision for our daughter and there would be absolutely no agreement from me and I would challenge that all the way to the last avenue before I gave up doing what I strongly believe is best for our daughter.

I finished the meeting off with a link to an interview with a highly highly highly qualified doctor that had hundreds more letters in front of his name than her and had world wide respect for his work and credibility, where he discussed his concerns, based on his knowledge and experience and familiarity with the areas of immunology, cardiology and vaccines and I asked that they both watch the short 10min interview video and if they feel that this expert was incorrect, then please provide more credible evidence that rebuts what he was saying so we could get this cleared up and we could all move on.

3 days later I get a message from the ex saying "I have decided not to vaccinate daughter at this point, I hope she doesn't get sick and die if she catches covid..."

Thank f**k for that. Weight off the shoulders.

3 weeks later, daughter caught covid, didn't even know she had it until she passed it to me and I got a headache, which I never get, andf felt a bit tired for a few days. I tested myself and daughter and low and behold we both had covid. None of us died, none of us were hospitalised. None of us even knew we had it until we did a test.

So for now, that fight for me is on hold and I am glad my ex appears to have seen my point of view on this one, its a battle i didnt want to have to have.