NSW Consent Orders - Chances of Relocation with Daughter?

[Susan88]

So just checking - he signed consent orders. He is working under the presumption that you have signed the consent orders (but you're electing not to tell him that crucial piece of information?).

So legally - What is in the orders isn't binding because you have not signed them - what was said in mediation isn't binding because there is no such thing as a binding verbal contract.

Does he have a good reason to expect he is seeing his kid? Yep, because he is working under assumption that there is a written agreement and that you have signed it. Why shouldn't he think that?

Do you have a legal obligation to provide access? Nope...

Does he have reason to be more than a little grumpy bloody oath? You could at least try and be honest with him. Tell him you have not signed the orders, or better still prioritise your kid's relationship with their dad.

Why? Well, you have established a dangerous precedent I'm gonna call it the 'Get Stuffed' precedent. So sometime down the track, you're going to want to swap weekends or something similar. His response is going to be 'Get Stuffed'. Why? What goes around comes around.

Solutions?

Keep ignoring him: Nope, only gonna make him mad.

Look for a solution? What about offering him makeup time? You don't have to, but it would be nice. Change your plans so he sees his kid.

Summarise - He said the kid could go on the holidays. Presumably after that, you agreed to consent orders that provide him with access to the kid for half holidays. If you stipulated in the orders that you wanted an exemption just for these holidays, then you would be entirely justified, but you didn't.

Now I've been in a similar situation. Consent orders written up, agreements made, thousands of dollars spent. She had free legal aid. Then after all that, she wouldn't sign. Waste of time and money... Now she might have had what she considers to be good reasons for not signing. So might you... But please look at this from the other person's perspective. Might make you understand all the phone calls. And, frankly, since you've got to the point where consent orders are written, if you had a problem, then maybe you should have raised it prior to now...

He does know they haven't been signed. I have never withheld her from him or his family. I have never been anything but civil & reasonable yet get walked all over & treated like crap. I agreed during mediation under duress as I felt pressured into it by my own solicitor.

Even when we were together, he manipulated & intimidated me to get his own way & if he didn't he made sure I knew about it! I'm not letting him do that to me anymore!

As for not signing the papers, the reason also behind that is he said no to relocation & it was documented at the time that relocation would be discussed upon the sale of family's home as there was not yet a timeline on proposed move. Just before receiving the papers, I found out my family's home had been sold & the move was happening (today in fact). Seemed pointless signing the papers to turn right around to apply for relocation.

 

[fbueller]

@Susan88 only you know what you can live with, but it's worth thinking about what sammy has said.

At the end of the day, this will be behind you at some stage, difficult to probably see how know, but it will be. At some point, you'll have a chance to ask yourself, did I take a step forward and do the best I could when the chance came my way.

The big thing I've taken away from my experiences, is that all the emotion drives people to seek "legal solutions", however, in reality, the courts are trying to get people to make "reasonable decisions" leading to "reasonable solutions" that is without the court's involvement. If you look at the process that is why mediation is there in the first place.

Don't do it to score points, don't do it cause you can legally, do something because you are a person and you see the bigger picture. Seeing that bigger picture is part of the problem.

 

[Susan88]

@Susan88 I was a bit confused by your last message.

I am no longer with the solicitor i used during mediation. My ex called that solicitor yesterday & she told him I had 'sacked' her & gone to seek representation elsewhere. She can't do that?

 

[sammy01]

So you wrote:

"He texted me this morning asking if she was going to him for the first week of the holidays and I said that she was going with my mum. He started carrying on that I am breaking the orders (we had consent orders done up which he has signed but I have not, therefore, they are not in effect but he does not know this)."

Look, with all due respect, have you really been fair and reasonable? You agreed to consent orders - you lead him to believe there was an agreement, then you decided not to agree. Nope, that ain't reasonable.

He said in mediation that the kid could see the nan and you expect him to commit to that, but you agreed to the consent order but don't expect to be held to those?

Yep, you felt pressured at mediation. Well, it is a stressful situation. Of course, you felt pressured if you guys couldn't come to an agreement then mediation, etc., is required. It is stressful. What is more stressful is when one parent seems to have primary care of a child and as such gets to dictate to the other parent when they can see their kid - and that is what you're doing.

What makes me say that?Well, he wants half holidays. Now let's pretend this is in court.

Is he gonna get half holidays? Well unless there are grounds for supervised visits (and you have not mentioned that there are) or unless you're talking about a very young child (and you have not said there is), then half holidays is basically a given...

Now you felt pressured by your own solicitor. By the sounds of things, you have a bloody good solicitor. Plenty of solicitors won't tell their client that it is a fair deal because plenty of solicitors are happy to see the thing dragged out in order to make more money out of their client. Maybe your solicitor was trying to save this getting dragged through the courts... If you think mediation is stressful, wait till you're standing in front of the magistrate - Then you'll know stress...

Now as for relocation. So when you went front up to the magistrate and say, "I want to relocate" and that will impact on the kid's relationship with the father but you're gonna do everything in your power to somehow minimise that impact...Guess what his solicitor is going to ask you?

The solicitor is gonna ask you if you chose to provide access to your mother ahead of providing access to dad during school holidays. And the answer is going to be yes, you did.

You can then tell the magistrate all about the reasons why, but you might have to accept that the magistrate might not be satisfied with your answers...

Cheers

 

[fbueller]

I think the solicitor can indicate that she is no longer representing you. Can advise whether or not they can receive service from your ex? Not sure I'd worry too much about that. Why is that an issue?

I was definitely worried about my lawyers until I stopped using them and understood what they could and couldn't say.

 

[Susan88]

So you wrote:

"He texted me this morning asking if she was going to him for the first week of the holidays and I said that she was going with my mum. He started carrying on that I am breaking the orders (we had consent orders done up which he has signed but I have not, therefore, they are not in effect but he does not know this)."

Look, with all due respect, have you really been fair and reasonable? You agreed to consent orders - you lead him to believe there was an agreement, then you decided not to agree. Nope, that ain't reasonable.

He said in mediation that the kid could see the nan and you expect him to commit to that, but you agreed to the consent order but don't expect to be held to those?

Yep, you felt pressured at mediation. Well, it is a stressful situation. Of course, you felt pressured if you guys couldn't come to an agreement then mediation, etc., is required. It is stressful. What is more stressful is when one parent seems to have primary care of a child and as such gets to dictate to the other parent when they can see their kid - and that is what you're doing.

What makes me say that?Well, he wants half holidays. Now let's pretend this is in court.

Is he gonna get half holidays? Well unless there are grounds for supervised visits (and you have not mentioned that there are) or unless you're talking about a very young child (and you have not said there is), then half holidays is basically a given...

Now you felt pressured by your own solicitor. By the sounds of things, you have a bloody good solicitor. Plenty of solicitors won't tell their client that it is a fair deal because plenty of solicitors are happy to see the thing dragged out in order to make more money out of their client. Maybe your solicitor was trying to save this getting dragged through the courts... If you think mediation is stressful, wait till you're standing in front of the magistrate - Then you'll know stress...

Now as for relocation. So when you went front up to the magistrate and say, "I want to relocate" and that will impact on the kid's relationship with the father but you're gonna do everything in your power to somehow minimise that impact...Guess what his solicitor is going to ask you?

The solicitor is gonna ask you if you chose to provide access to your mother ahead of providing access to dad during school holidays. And the answer is going to be yes, you did.

You can then tell the magistrate all about the reasons why, but you might have to accept that the magistrate might not be satisfied with your answers...

Cheers

I get that you have been through this & it's been hard for you but you do not know my situation. The way I have been treated from the beginning of the relationship until now has been draining, mentally & emotionally. I have been continuously walked all over, manipulated, intimidated, abused because it's got to be his way or else.

I have put up with it to avoid confrontation, to be civil for my daughter. I have been nothing but civil & reasonable.over 4.5 years he couldn't have given 2 shits about his daughter, but now he has a girlfriend with kids, that's all changed.

I'mm sorry but you are a father from day one or not at all. You can't flip the 'parent switch' on & off as you please. Every time he has a new gf, he starts to show a little interest then as soon as the relationship ends, so does the interest in our child.

So is this in her best interests? Is this a meaningful relationship? Is this acceptable? No, no, no. Is this mentally & emotionally damaging for her? Yes. Is it heartbreaking to watch? Yes. Is it fair? No!

 

[fbueller]

@Susan88 I'm really sorry you're hurting, I think many of us in here know what you're going through and your story would no doubt resonate with most of us to some degree or another.

Maybe the way forward is to look at your options.

Lay them out and let's go through them together. Don't evaluate your options just yet, just list them no matter how ridiculous. Then you can evaluate. You can consider this a safe space. This is what my support team did with me online and it worked in a great way.

Happy to go through it with you and honestly, I think that's what is needed. It gives people a chance to vent, cry, laugh and reality test.

Here's hoping this comment doesn't get moderated

 

[sammy01]

Yup, been hard for me, true. I'm a male; I had an AVO against me. I had to have supervised visits...but my 3 kids live 80% with me. My youngest was 4 when that started. Not a bad result... Suggests maybe I've learned a bit along the way, but you don't have to take my opinion.

Yep, I do not know your situation - What I know is the info you have offered in pursuit of help / opinions. That is why you posted, right? And with the info you posted, I provided you with my opinions. Please note another poster took a pretty similar stance to me. Oh and my stance is pretty similar to your solicitor. Starting to feel outnumbered?

So just to check your thinking. You might be making some assumptions. He is wanting time with the kid. He wants to be a dad. You're the one who wont let him see his kid in the holidays... True?

Now, this is a website where people seek legal opinions from other lay people. My opinion: You do not have to give him the kid in the holidays because you have no legal obligation to do so, but down the track, he just might have some legally binding court orders that provide him with access and when you have a special occasion and want the kid in attendance with you but that time is dictated by the orders as time with dad - expect him to tell you where to go.

Last thing - yep you're so right - you're either a father / parent or you're not. Right now, he appears to want to be a parent. Great, make orders for him to have 50/50 shared care. Encourage that...Seriously. I reckon I'm on a winner here.

If you really want to relocate make him step up to the plate. Agree to him having maximum time with the kid. Go on dare you. Why? Well, if he has 50/50 and half holidays and all that responsibility that comes with it and he does not comply with the orders and does not maintain contact in accordance with the order, then you have really good grounds to apply to court for relocation.

So I'm keen to hear from anyone else here who reckons there is a problem with my opiniom. I reckon the only problem is this... What if he picks the kid up 2 minutes early and not 1 minute late, every time? What if he does the homework, what if he showers the kid in his love? What then? You don't get to relocate, but his kid gets to have a meaningful relationship with dad. If he does't step up to the plate then you've got a good case for relocation

 

[MartyK]

@ Susan88. Firstly. These consent orders you keep referring to that you didn't sign. Where they meant to be filed with the court or were they just agreements made through the the lawyers? If the latter, they are agreements only. Lawyers do not have the same authority as the court, consent orders must be filed and stamped.

Secondly. I once assisted a father who was an absolute idiot, to put it bluntly. He had already filed his initiating application before I came onto the scene. His orders were not realistic and he couldn't quite grasp why 50/50 would not be practicable when he worked interstate 3 out of every 5 weeks. His idea was that either his girlfriend, his mother or even his girlfriends mother could have the kids on the weeks he was away. His ex had other ideas and so did the court.

It is very important for children to spend time with other significant people in their life, including maternal and paternal grandparents. However, these people, unless there are safety concerns for the children, should never be a replacement for parents.

How would you feel if you were placed in your ex's position? You seem to be saying that the relationship between your mum and kids is both more important and meaningful to them than spending time with their dad. I would suggest the court may have other ideas about that.

 

[Susan88]

@Susan88 I'm really sorry you're hurting, I think many of us in here know what you're going through and your story would no doubt resonate with most of us to some degree or another.

Maybe the way forward is to look at your options.

Lay them out and let's go through them together. Don't evaluate your options just yet, just list them no matter how ridiculous. Then you can evaluate. You can consider this a safe space. This is what my support team did with me online and it worked in a great way.

Happy to go through it with you and honestly, I think that's what is needed. It gives people a chance to vent, cry, laugh and reality test.

Here's hoping this comment doesn't get moderated

I really don't know what my options are. I just know that I can't cope in NSW alone whilst my entire small family are in QLD. I've never not had family around. They only left today & I'm already having a rough time. I need to get out of here but it doesn't look too promising...