WA Security cam recording audio in small shop

[roland]

i am a sole trader, customers come in and the little security cam records video and the conversation between me and customer. I can tell it has saved me from unscrupulous people a few times over the years.

is what i am doing illegal? especially the audio part? If it is illegal can i put a sign up on the wall to forewarn them?

 

[Atticus]

s what i am doing illegal? especially the audio part? If it is illegal can i put a sign up on the wall to forewarn them?

I think it is illegal... see paragraph 1 of act >>>>> SURVEILLANCE DEVICES ACT 1998 - SECT 5

I doubt that putting a sign up changes the above

 

[roland]

this is a legal forum for advice, no offence can and maybe might be the difference between me going to jail or not. I was really hoping for something a tad more precise.

i'd also like to add, what is the actual problem with recording a conversation between me and a customer. Not all customers are honest and decent as i have discovered over the years. Why do all the telcos say this call WILL BE RECORDED. Like it or lump it, you will be recorded. There appears to be no choice. If i'm with bigpond and i have a technical query or problem, they will record you and there is no other way. Well, i want to know why that get away with it, it must be based in law, and if they can do i can to. That is the gist of my question. How does that act read? does it need to be interpreted? well, that's what lawyers do and i'm not one of them. It's no saying it's okay for iinet to record me but not ok for me to record them??

 

[roland]

furthermore, car cams record audio, mine is good at it, it can clearly record voices outside the car. Do i go to jail and don't get to proceed?? Many or most cctv cameras record audio and operators are able to speak to people.

It's my belief a small shop owner, office etc, should have the same rights as big telcos!

 

[Atticus]

I was really hoping for something a tad more precise.

I provided a link to the actual legislation.....

A warning at the beginning of a phone call (as per your example) is very different than a security cam with voice recording mounted in a store. For starters you have the option to not continue with the phone call or in some cases tell them that you DON'T want the conversation recorded. There are also strict privacy laws that must be obeyed

I recommend you have appropriate signage at the entrance to your store warning that VIDEO or CCT surveillance is in operation.... However, to avoid possible problems should a complaint ever be made, I would be disabling the audio function ....

As a business owner ideally you should make yourself aware of the laws in this area before installing security cams.... The link below may help as well. If still unsure, I recommend you talk to someone in the business of installing these devices & should be up to date with your particular states laws

Security camera laws for Australian businesses

 

[JazKaz]

Firstly, the statute, I did not read about part 4 or go into depth in research about this matter, as a brief overview.

Important parts of section 5:
Section 5 (1)(b) states
Subject to subsections (2) and (3), a person shall not install, use, or maintain, or cause to be installed, used, or maintained, a listening device —to record a private conversation to which that person is a party.

Now for the exception to that rule that may apply to your situation...

Section 5 subsection 3) ‘Subsection (1)(b) does not apply to the installation, use, or maintenance of a listening device by or on behalf of a person who is a party to a private conversation if —

(c) each principal party to the private conversation consents expressly or impliedly to that installation, use, or maintenance;’

This could be proven if a sign is placed outside the shop or in clear view of the customers. This is because their continuance to shop or not expressly mention that they wished not to be recorded could be construed to mean acceptance as with the term consents ‘impliedly’.

Case law on this matter would more accurately describe how the courts are likely to view this argument and how impliedly is to be construed, but that is my basic assumption.

Subsection 3(d) has applicability as well. ‘(d) a principal party to the private conversation consents expressly or impliedly to that installation, use, or maintenance and the installation, use, or maintenance is reasonably necessary for the protection of the lawful interests of that principal party.’

For this subsection, if you can prove that your interests need to be protected and that your actions reasonably protect those interests, section 1(b) does not apply from my reading.

hope this helps break it down

 

[JazKaz]

Firstly, the statute...

It would seem that you may have a case after all. I would suggest making it known to customers before commencing conversations so they can agree to be recorded, and secondly I would check to ensure that your requirement for recording can be proven... the level of detail including the recording of conversations may not be needed for your store and in that case would not help your arguable point under subsection 3 (d) if the matter was taken to court

 

[Rob Legat - SBPL]

Unfortunately, there’s more to it than just putting up a warning sign to get consent. That may (I repeat, may) be fine for conversations between the shop owner and a customer. But, the cameras are going to pick up all conversations, notably those between customers which don’t involve the shop owner. These won’t be consented to, and won’t be recorded by a party to the conversation - making a warning sign useless.

 

[Atticus]

For this subsection, if you can prove that your interests need to be protected and that your actions reasonably protect those interests, section 1(b) does not apply from my reading.

Very much doubt that would be correct in the kind of setting we are taking about here, ie, a business/customer relationship

That may (I repeat, may) be fine for conversations between the shop owner and a customer. But, the cameras are going to pick up all conversations, notably those between customers which don’t involve the shop owner. These won’t be consented to, and won’t be recorded by a party to the conversation - making a warning sign useless.

I agree ....

@roland your problem here is the audio recording... You said you have been using this for years, so I assume something has recently happened, (or at least the issue of audio bought to your attention) that has prompted you to inquire as to it's legality ..... err on the side of caution is my advice... I would be disabling that function, or better still have a proper security camera installed compliant with your states laws...

 

[roland]

there is only one customer at one time. It's not really a shop as in retail store, and i only see approx 5 customers each week.

Unfortunately, there’s more to it than just putting up a warning sign to get consent. That may (I repeat, may) be fine for conversations between the shop owner and a customer. But, the cameras are going to pick up all conversations, notably those between customers which don’t involve the shop owner. These won’t be consented to, and won’t be recorded by a party to the conversation - making a warning sign useless.