NSW Recovery Order

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familynfriends

Well-Known Member
15 April 2020
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Wanting some advice on recovery orders for my 4 (almost 5) year old twin girls

They had been having regular time with their day every second Thursday night - pick 9 am Thursday and return 4 pm Friday
and every second weekend - pick up Friday 9 am and return 4 pm Sunday
he also rang and spoke to them regularly and if I need to do extra hours for work or need to do things for my older girls things like that he was the person I was asking to help which I thought was a good thing gaving him extra time with them and at the time he was happy to do it

About 3 weeks ago I had a job offer from a girl I had worked for before back in my home town which is 2 hours from where he and I are at the moment
I hadn't excepted the job yet but I did discuss it with my older girls and also with my mum when she was at my house one day, obviously, the twins have overheard the conversation I'll explain that in a moment

also about the same time m ex and I were talking about christmas and new years which we had sorted previously and he was having them for both occasions this year which was fine until he then asked to take them for the whole week prior to christmas as he wanted to go camping with his family about 3 hours from where we live I said id consider it and after he left I rang him and said he could take them on Tuesday and return them at 9 am boxing day as planned that was fine...until a couple of days later when we had a disagreement and because he was whinging about not being able to go for longer and it ended up in a fight over days times ect anyway in the heat of the argument I told him he couldn't have his extra time and that he could just have them the times we had first worked out he was not and I hung up.

He then turned up at there childcare a couple of days later about just before I arrived to collect them and said he was just seeing them which was unusual and he was acting funny he left and that was that

Thursday at 9 am he came to pick them up and I was busy at the time and I let out the front door he was waiting at the top of my driveway and we didn't really speak he put the girls in the car and left

Friday at 4;15 pm I got an SMS message to say he would not be returning the girls as he was concerned for their welfare and the fact that the girls told him I had a secrete about moving away without speaking to him about moving - which was not true and obviously the girls had heard the conversation with my mum or my older daughters and told him about what they had overheard

So now he has had the girls since the 17th of December he has said he will not be returning them that he thinks I am mentally unstable and that I was going to move and no tell him he has let me speak to them on zoom 3 times each time for only around 5-10 mins at the most and he doesn't leave the room while they speak to me
my solicitor has put in for an urgent recovery order on Monday the 21 December it was knocked back as urgent and I have been given a court day for the 23 February I don't understand how they can make me wait so long to get them back I am their primary carer and they were having regular time with him but I do also have an AVO because when we broke up this time last year he smashed my possessions in my house and called me horrible names ect and the police came and they put him on they AVO

I thought we had moved past this and we had been getting along most of the time reasonably well but I was wrong

I guess I'm just after any advice anyone can give me as the 23 February is a long time almost 10 weeks away from me and I'm so heartbroken I can't see he won't let me except on the zoom calls and he won't even talk to me about anything for me to explain also I wasn't going to take the job my as my other daughters wanted to stay where we are and I did too but no matter what I say or try to say he won't listen to me I had police do a couple of welfare checks and they are ok and I know his their dad but it the fact he won't let me see them and its Christmas time

my solicitor said the court will not be happy with him withholding them as he has no good reason to do so but I just don't know what to expect or if there is anything else I can do

I even thought about trying to go and get them but have been advised against this because then it will look bad for me but this all seems so unfair
 

Atticus

Well-Known Member
6 February 2019
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I thought we had moved past this and we had been getting along most of the time reasonably well but I was wrong
Arguments happen with all parents, separated or together. Doesn't mean it's all gone to crap forever.

From his perspective, he has heard talk of you relocating. If that were to happen, his relationship with the kids will be severely affected. He is probably reacting to that & by doing what he has done, will get this before a court ASAP... It's highly unlikely he intends to keep the kids as primary carer... At court he will probably want some assurance that you are not relocating.

End of the day, you guys can work this out.... I recommend that you talk to your lawyer about the two of you getting together to discuss putting together a formal parenting plan.... for now & moving forward as they start schooling. If a court was to decide parenting orders, the default is normally (at a minimum) every second weekend, Fri after school to Monday morning at school, plus a midweek visit on the off week, plus half of school holidays... So him asking for an extended visit so he could go away camping was not unreasonable & would be in keeping with what the court would order.

If you can get together a parenting plan that you are both happy with before the Feb court date, then you could ask the court to accept it as orders by consent if you wish, or just keep it as a parenting plant... either way, if the court is satisfied that you two can co-parent okay, then you can nip this small stumble in the bud... Believe me that will best for all
 

sammy01

Well-Known Member
27 September 2015
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I like Atticus' advice... See if you can get an agreement. Make some concessions like a no relocation order.

Now. You're not gonna like the next bit... See your post reads like you're the boss of these kids. He has to ask you to take them for a week? He has to 'ask' and you get to 'consider'. Worse.... If he disagrees with you the consequence is he has his time reduced? WOW - But you know best right because you're the MUM? U'm nope. There is no 'mum knows best' provision in the family laws of this country...

Now suck it up and keep reading...
See this feeling you're having at the moment. The feeling of powerlessness about when you'll see the kids. Not very pleasant is it? Hmm. Welcome to HIS world... A world where simply having a different opinion to you results in being punished by having the time with the kids taken away. OUCH.

Now just for a minute I'm gonna pretend that I believe that the kids 'overheard'. Right. Well there are some conversations that need to be had well away from little ones and you failed. But let's look at this from dad's perspective... You're limiting his time... He has good reason to think you're gonna up and move without discussing it with him... Right? Seems to me his response is pretty reasonable.

So calm down. But hey someone had to tell you....

Two choices.
1. Wait till Feb. It would seem reasonable that interim orders would be made and unless he makes allegations of abuse / neglect it would be reasonable the kids would be returned to you and dad would be given time similar to what was happening prior to all this and a good chance his time would be increased.
2. Ask your solicitor to write to him offering consent orders that include a no relocation beyond 30km (for example) from the current address and orders specifying when each parent spends time with the kids... 4-5 nights a fortnight and half holidays is reasonable. So right now he has 3 nights a fortnight? Does he want more? Frankly, 3 nights a fortnight is pretty lean on. So what is the reasons for dad only having 3 nights a fortnight?

Given the time of year I reckon you could get consent orders signed within 10 days if dad is agreeable.

Now guess what. The kids will be fine. I bet they're having a ball out camping with dad and the cousins etc etc.

Now before you write me a nasty response, go for a walk. Think about what I've written, realise that I've spent 20 min and I've done so with the best of intentions. Often the best advice is the advice you really really don't want to hear BUT really really need to hear....
 

familynfriends

Well-Known Member
15 April 2020
57
2
199
I have offered an undertaking saying I will not leave the area (and I wasn't leaving the area)
also, he only has 3 nights a fortnight because he has never actually taken care of them by himself at all
I have offered 2 nights a week Wednesday - Friday one week and Friday to Sunday the next
the girls do not start school till 2022 then he will have half school holidays
he was not limited he could see them whenever he liked he only had to call me and it was never a problem
he could call whenever he liked
I know the girls need to spend time with him I am not trying to keep them from their dad and the conversation was not near them but obviously in the future if it is something like this I would be much more careful
maybe consider that he also could have communicated his concern with me before taking such drastic action as he has, and yes now he is saying I am mentally unstable which is not true, to satisfy this I have already been to see a psychologist i had previously been to for PTSD.
She also did couples counseling with us and knows him
She has said I am mentally fine and capable of looking after the girls
 

sammy01

Well-Known Member
27 September 2015
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"he has never actually taken care of them by himself at all"
Yup i think that is the point... Clearly he wants to take care of them by himself - you know, like going camping for a week.

Now I'm wondering if he would agree with what you've written. "he was not limited, he could see them whenever he liked he only had to call and it wasn't a problem?
BUT that isn't true is it? because he wanted to take them for a week. YOU SAID NO... So he can't see them whenever he likes. He sees them when you let him.

So you have offered 2 nights a week? ok. Good... What has been his response?

So again, you're not gonna like me. But that is ok.. So you said 'he will have half school holidays' in 2022? why? Why can't he have a week with the kids now?
 

Atticus

Well-Known Member
6 February 2019
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294
2,394
he has never actually taken care of them by himself at all
He has had them overnights for a while, yes? ..... You've had the police do two welfare checks since 17/12 & the kids are fine, yes?

Come court on the 23/2, he would have had the kids for just over two months, clearly demonstrating the ability to care full time for them .... The kids welfare whilst in his care is not the issue, nor in your care I'd say.

You just need to get a formal parenting plan in place (preferably before the court date)
 

familynfriends

Well-Known Member
15 April 2020
57
2
199
Let me ask both of you if I was a man writing this would you have a different perspective?? and be honest
He was happy with the 2 nights a week when offered and yes I said No to camping but do I not get time with my kids before Christmas?
It was his year to have Christmas and New years and he also has their birthday in February......So why is it that I am the one being unfair? I wanted till the 23rd he had all the other days and also he had agreed earlier and knew this so if there was a problem it should have been brought up earlier
Also, you both pointed out that people fight and disagree and that's going to happen so is it me or him that has to cave, and do I have to cave every time, or does he have to cave too?
My house is very open to him and no his not restricted I want him to be part of his children's lives, but at some point, there has to be limits and privacy for both of us
and if your child or children were not returned and only spoke to you via a zoom/skype call for 2 months no seeing them face to face or hugging them or reading them a book before bed kissing them goodnight wouldn't you be upset?? should I just be grateful I'm getting a call and shut up? Would you just think oh well at least there with the other parent?? I don't think you would be
If he would have picked up the phone and talked to me or even called in and said he wanted to have a chat and communicate with me and asked me what was going on and if what the girls had told him was true then this could have been worked out but instead, he decided to keep our children from me at Christmas time....If this was the best choice he could make and you both think this is ok then wow!!
I am not perfect as parents we all make mistakes but I don't think the decision he made was the right action at all and for all my trying to maintain and keep his role in our children lives a very big role because it definitely is very important for little girls to have their dad around them I feel like he has totally disrespected my role in their lives and cut me off as much as he can
I miss my girls I want to hold them and kiss them goodnight as much as he does but this is not the right way to go about it at all !!
And I asked for some advice on what to expect in court not to be judged by people and their opinions but I actually wanted facts on what had happened in similar situations/cases but thanks for your brutal honesty !! It's dually noted
 

sammy01

Well-Known Member
27 September 2015
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ok, slow down... Now go make a nice cuppa...

Look you don't have to like the advice BUT to at least not consider it would be silly.

So the question of gender. Nope gender doesn't matter. However, if it was your ex posting here looking for advice, then my advice would be to return the children asap... You are right, the way he has gone about this is not good for the kids nor is it good for you two working together moving forward. He has been dumb.... BTW you've been pretty dumb too. But my advice would be to him that he return the children and seek a written undertaking from you that you would not move away and I would advise him to make sure he can document that he has not given permission for the kids to be moved. That would give him some confidence that the kids won't be moved and give you good reason not to make the move... You have offered an undertaking and he has refused. This isn't gonna end well for him. So enough about how dumb he has been because he hasn't come here looking for advice. YOU have. So lets get back to giving you advice.

He should not have done this unless he has concerns for the kid's welfare while in your care. Now that said, you have said that he is claiming that he does have concerns for the kids while with you. So some bad news. A letter from your psychologist isn't gonna be enough. The courts have their own independent psychologists to ensure there is no bias. But keep going and getting the counselling. This stuff is stressful. If there are legitimate reasons for doing what he has done, he can explain them to a magistrate and he had better have a bloody good case.

Now as far as someone having to 'cave'. I have two thoughts.
1. Get consent orders. Have very very clear rules about when the kids are with mum and when with dad. Then stick to the rules.
and now some very contradictory advice.
2. You should cave. See my thinking is YOU have more time with the kids, so give a little.... So let me ask you a question. Let's remove the relocation issue just for a moment. But with hindsight, which would be preferable.... agreeing to his Christmas time request VS the current situation? Clearly caving in and avoiding this would be preferable. And no you don't have to cave everytime BUT if this is his year for Christmas and you refuse the extra time you've created a situation where Christmas for him is not with his extended family... So this comes back to the very clear rules bit... But him taking the kids for a week at their age isn't unreasonable.

Now I have clearly come down on your side as far as his decision to withold the kids. Sure don't like my advice, but what dad has done is wrong. But dad isn't reading this you are... So I'm gonna challenge your thinking. See you seem to think that dad has been ok with the current situation. The evidence in front of us suggest differently. Now at this point in time without his response to your court application, we can only make some guesses as to why he isn't happy with the current situation.

So some male perspective for you... He asked you for a little bit of extra time. His request wasn't unreasonable. Sure it would mean you don't see the kids for a week. But it isn't about you... And the benefit of the kids getting to do this camp trip outweighs any negatives. BUT mum said NO. Now your first post really does read like a woman who feels she can tell dad the rules. You have no idea how much it suxs to have to have your time with the kids dictated to you (well you kinda do now). And you wrote stuff like "he has never taken care of the kids by himself" . As a bloke I interpret that as you justifying yourself. That somehow you're entitled to make value judgements about his parenting ability and that somehow mum knows best.

How is your cuppa going? Let's try and be constructive moving forward.
So what to do? Has your solicitor written to him?
Does dad even know that court is happening in Feb?
Can you text message the ex and ask him to discuss his concerns? It would be a good idea to have that on the record. Make sure you don't get into a text message war.

Look that is about all you can do at this point in time. BUT I do reckon you might wanna think through the advice given by myself and Atticus because either dad has some very real concerns about the current situation between you and him and I reckon he doesn't agree with your assertion that you have been fair and that might be some criticism you might want to think about to try and get a good resolution moving forward.

BTW when did the AVO expire? sounds like he has been strategic in waiting for the AVO to expire?

Avoiding court is a bloody good idea. Maybe, just maybe I'm right and dad has been feeling pretty upset about you dictating when he sees the kids. Trust me, I've been there. My ex would routinely change arrangements and I knew that if i said a word of complaint she would win the argument by saying I was stressing her and intimidating her and blah blah blah... It was a terrible way to have to live. BUT I"m sure if you were to ask my ex she would totally be able to 'justify' herself and she would probably even tell you that she was being perfectly reasonable. I just happen to disagree BUT she had the power to punish me IF i disagreed. I wonder if your ex feels a bit like I did?

So get that solicitor writing to him. Communicate to dad in a reasonable way. Realise that a bit of compromise from you moving forward might get this sorted faster and more amicably... So your job for today. Send the ex a message asking if he'd agree to work with you to write up consent orders and that those consent orders will stipulate a no relocation clause. I'm guessing by now he has returned from the camping trip, so he has had that win and an offer of consent orders with a no-relocation clause means he should be satisfied moving forward UNLESS there are other issues like him having real concerns for the kids welfare while with you and I can't comment on that because I have not heard his side of this saga...

Let us know how you go. I know you're stressed, but the kids will be fine and you should have confidence that IF dad doesn't try to find compromise HE will not like the way court pans out.
 

Atticus

Well-Known Member
6 February 2019
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294
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Let me ask both of you if I was a man writing this would you have a different perspective?? and be honest
Would be the same advice from me, ie, you need a parenting plan.. You can ask your lawyer to help you mediate something before court, or have the court order you both to mediation in February (perhaps along with a family assessment by a court appointed psychologist)... You guys don't need this, & I'm sure you don't want it. You get along & co parent reasonably okay it would seem.

The catalyst has been a falling out over an extended stay, along with him hearing about your wanting to relocate. Dads methods are not great, BUT, we also don't know how long he intended to keep the kids for.. Without an urgent recovery order application & the court deciding that it's not urgent & can wait till 23/2, the kids may well have been returned by now, who knows.... The accusations that you are not fit to parent because of PTSD won't fly, he probably knows it, but now, like you, he is committed to a course of action, UNLESS, you can both step back, agree that court is not what you want & agree that you just both need a set of rules going forward, ie, a parenting plan/consent orders.

That's what the court will have you do anyway. Arrange mediation now is my advice. Nothing to do with gender
 

familynfriends

Well-Known Member
15 April 2020
57
2
199
I have tried to negotiate and agreed to what he wants I said I would sign an undertaking to not leave the area we live in, but he continuously tells me I'm a liar and that he doesn't believe anything I say so won't agree to anything but what the court will decide, both my solicitor and his solicitor have tried to to get him to agree to sign the paperwork but he won't. I think he is now just trying to be spiteful and I am just begging him to consider the children because they are asking to come home every time i speak to them and I do not prompt them in any way they just tell me they miss me and start to cry and he just keeps telling them in the background that he will sort it out and yeah I know your going to say of course they miss me but it breaks my heart and I can not just ignore there request to want to come home I want to hug them and he will not even let me see them and yes definitely great timing with the AVO running out just before court