WA Family Law - How Much Travel is Too Much for Kids?

[Lennon]

My family law final hearing is in a couple of months. The judge made orders requiring the parties to file a number of documents including precise final orders.

I am really trying to work out what I should ask for in terms of time with the kids, and hope for some feedback from others if possible.

The issue is that they live across the country, and for them to spend time with me involves a 4-hour drive and a 5-hour flight.

Is it unreasonable in those circumstances for me to ask for the kids to visit me every school holidays (ie 4 times a year)? I am worried that the judge will think the travel is too onerous (although the ex has never raised this, she has a new lawyer and I wonder if she will come up with it in her final affidavit).

Kids are 10 and 12.

 

[Fritzmonger]

I would argue that is reasonable. It's unrealistic to be a weekend parent. The only complications I can see would be extra curricular activities where the kids would miss some events and Christmas. You may need to allow the kids a week with your ex over Christmas every second year.

I can't remember rules on kids flying alone, but airlines are usually accommodating.

Given it's 2 days of travel (there and back), I would argue longer stays with you are better for the kids

 

[Lennon]

Thanks for your reply Fritzmonger!! I feel that it's reasonable but I worry that a judge won't want to subject the kids to that much travelling. I have said that they should spend a minimum 10 days with me each trip (up to 28 days at Christmas holidays), because the first and last day will be lost to travel and because it would be unfair on the kids if they only had a few days after arriving before they had to do that travel again. I am wary about making the travel sound too onerous (even though it is entirely my ex's decision to move so far away, nothing I can really do about that now).

Weekend parenting is impossible, the travel is too long and too expensive.

Luckily for me (but sad for the kids) they do not participate in any extra-curricula activities at all. I have suggested to ex for years that they should do some team sports or something, but she has refused. I bet she wishes she had taken my advice now lol.

They have flown alone to spend time with me quite a few times now (occasionally by agreement, then with interim orders) so that won't be a problem.

I have suggested that Christmas holidays be split so that they spend alternate Christmases with us (unlike my ex whose suggested orders are that they always spend Christmas with her).

 

[AllForHer]

What you're proposing is a fairly standard outcome for cases where the tyranny of distance is an issue. It's usually either half of all school holidays, or all short school holidays plus two weeks in the long Christmas break.

Sharing Christmas year-about is also fairly standard.

 

[Lennon]

I wasn't keen on a "half school holidays" order because when that was ordered at the last interim hearing my ex's lawyer repeatedly asked the judge to fix actual dates for these school holidays. The judge asked whether the dates my ex's lawyer proposed were half the school holidays and the lawyer said yes (which was totally untrue, the kids' school has 56 days school holidays and the dates the lawyer suggested only gave me 21 days).

I was on the telephone and the judge made an order before I had a chance to say anything. I can see us facing years of arguing about what is half the school holidays unless the orders just state an exact number of days the kids are to spend with me each holidays.

I also wouldn't be surprised if she moved the kids to a different school where the holidays are shorter, if a "half school holidays" order is made.

 

[Lennon]

We are literally going to trial over this issue (nothing else, really). She wants them to see me twice a year for a total of 24 days. I want them to see me four times a year for about 60 days.

 

[AllForHer]

The best way to get around all this nonsense with school holiday dates is to include a provision in the orders that clarifies when school holidays start and end, and I don't meant according to dates (because they change every year, after all).

In our orders, the provision for what constitutes school holidays states that for the purpose of the relevant orders, school holidays commence from after school on the last day of the school term as published on the state education department's website, and conclude before school on the first day of the following school term as published on the state education department's website.

So, if the Queensland Department of Education website states that the last day of Term 3 is Friday, 15 September 2017, and the first day of Term 4 is Tuesday, 3 October 2017, then school holidays commence when school finishes on Friday, 15 September 2017 and conclude when school starts on Tuesday, 3 October.

When we did half holidays, it was worked out according to the number of nights, which in the above example would be 18 nights, with changeover occurring at X o'clock on the day thereby calculated to be the middle of the school holidays. If the number of nights was an odd number, then the extra night would be added to the half that the child spent with the father in even years, and the mother in odd years.

Or it was something to that effect, anyway. My husband and his ex abandoned half holidays in favour of just continuing the week-about care arrangement through the holidays, so my memory is a little foggy on that front.

Whether you're going for half holidays or all holidays, you should include a provision that clarifies the school holiday periods (as above) anyway. Better to be watertight than open to interpretation that causes conflict down the line.

 

[sammy01]

Wow, you guys can't see the obvious solution... You have kids for 3 sets of holidays... No one wins but no one loses

 

[Lennon]

wow you guys cant see the obvious solution..... You have kids for 3 sets of holidays.... no one wins but no one loses

I love how you always assume to know the easy answer Sammy01.

I have offered 3 visits a year in order to avoid the stress and expense of court. My ex has never even responded to those offers (other than to attach them to her affidavits as "proof" that I don't genuinely want to see them 4 times a year).

If we are going to have to go to court over it (as it seems we are) I want the best outcome possible for my kids. I don't think it is best for them to spend 6 months every year without spending time with me. It becomes more difficult to talk to them when I haven't spent time with them recently, they become resentful and distant. We need to see each other regularly, just like other parents and children do, to stay in touch with each other.

 

[sammy01]

Nope I don't assume... I run off the info you provide... Did you mention that you offered 3 sets of holidays as a compromise? Nope...

Ok so you tried that one... In that case go for 4... In fact go for 4 and a mid-term weekend where you travel to their location (assuming that is achievable). At 10 and 12, you should find most airlines will be ok... Many have their alone children policy advertised on their website...

Go to court. Why? Well magistrate will make clear instructions about who is to pay for airfares etc... You don't want to pay for airfares and only realise the kids are not coming when you're at the arrival gate...

And I totally agree with the other poster... Mate the amount of arguments I've had about when holidays being and end is insane and every time I was left with less time with the kids...

Go to court - you'll get 4 a year at least... How can she possible argue that you should have any less? Half holidays is really just one of those things which is pretty much a given...