VIC Criminal Code - Removing of Disorderly Person from Property?

[Reuben James]

I'm in Victoria but my question relates to the QLD Criminal Code 1899 Section 277 (2) - the removal of a disorderly person from one's property.

The Act states that although one may use reasonable force to remove a person, he or she is not permitted to occasion the person (being removed) "grievous bodily harm." Does that imply that anything less than disfigurement, dismemberment or a life-threatening injury is permitted?

And secondly, is there anything in law which would prevent a person (who is lawfully removing another) from placing that person in imminent danger? For example, if my back door opened onto a busy road and I removed a disorderly person by pushing them out of the door and (inadvertently) onto the road where they were struck by a car and grievously harmed, could I be held liable?

Thanks for your time, really appreciate it

 

[Rod]

You can only use as much force is reasonably necessary. It is what the judge feels is reasonable, not you. Use too much force and you can be charged with assault.

 

[Reuben James]

Thank you for your reply Rod, although I'm not quite sure you understood my question (these things can be hard to get across sometimes!).

To ask it another way...If I were to use reasonable force to remove a person from my property-- however immediately adjacent to (or beyond the boundary of) my property lies a situation that places that person at risk of harm (like a busy road or a steep cliff) and that person is indeed harmed as a consequence of being placed there by me, will I be held responsible for their injuries?

 

[Rod]

Without knowing the precise facts - yes, you may be responsible.

A couple of legal issue to prove to make you responsible, but if proven, you could be responsible for murder or GBH.

If someone trespasses you do not have an automatic right to be careless or reckless with their life.

 

[Reuben James]

What if I were genuinely unaware of the danger that I had placed the person in? If the tragedy that occurred was unforeseen and I had no intention whatsoever of harming, or causing their death?

Let's say, for argument sake, I bought a country property as an investment and didn't really know my way around on the ground. On my first visit there I called a party and invited thirty or so colleagues/entertainers to join me and celebrate with a drink. Over the course of a few hours most of the assembled were a bit tipsy and as dusk approached, one of the guests, who couldn't stop making unwanted advances (grabbing people inappropriately etc) was asked to leave. In response he became abusive and at that point I was asked to intervene. I requested he leave and he refused so I decided then and there to remove him physically. There was a bit of push and shove but we didnt strike each other; was more like an arm wrestle. The other guests cleared a path to the back door and I managed to get him outside, instructing them to lock the door and pulled him around to the side of the house. There was a tall fence on my right that ran alongside the house, boxing us into a corridor which led to the front of the house and all of the parked vehicles belonging to guests. At that moment I saw a wooden lockable door inset into the fence. I knew it would take a lot of energy to push him all the way up to his vehicle so I considered for (what seemed a long time but in reality was only) a moment, pushing him through the door and locking it behind him. I did this (a) to make him walk the length of the fence and come around to the front without me having to push him all the way and (b) give me a chance to get my breath and re gather myself. I acted on that impulse and got him through the door, locking it behind him. When he realised he couldn't get back through he set off along the fence, on the other side, and I did too, heading out to the front where I located his car. He drove a very expensive car and I thought the best way to draw him away from the house was to stand beside it and get his attention when he appeared from the other side of the fence. But he didn't appear. I waited and waited and after about half an hour one of the girls came out and asked me to come back in. "He's prolly gone for a spew-- come back inside we'll just lock the door." She said. It was late and dark and so I went back inside and forgot all about him. We stayed up all night and when the sun came up we all jumped in our cars and headed into town for breakfast. No one noticed that his car was still in the lot.... What I came to realise was that he'd fallen into a deep pit recently dug by the neighbour. When detectives came to see me they said it was 'lucky' his were the only footprints at the scene, however they may consider other avenues; other points of law to 'redress the grief' suffered by his family...

 

[Gorodetsky]

Hi Reuben,

This is hypothetical right?

Why push him to the back door when his car is out the front? You buy a property in the country and your neighbour digs a deep pit, unbeknownst to you, close to your house, on the other side of a door?

That's not a particularly strong argument.

Regards

 

[Reuben James]

Hello there Sir,

The reason I took him out the back was that we were already situated to the rear of the house when the scuffle began and the back door happened to be the nearest possible exit. Taking him to the front would have meant navigating my way through a couple of rooms full of people. Didn't want to involve anyone else or have him break something on the way out.

I'm not sure why the pit was dug, may have been to check a gas line or something. The fence was placed there as a result of subdivision (the two properties were originally one) and the door was added because the previous owner was staying in the house while working on the land. It may have been he who dug the pit I'm still not sure. I bought the house not the land-- never saw the pit.

And yes of course, this is just hypothetical.

 

[Gorodetsky]

Hi Reuben,

I am not a solicitor.

Ok, the back door was closer, reasonable argument.

Criminal issues... according to your hypothetical situation, you seemed to have used reasonable force to remove this person. Police may seek evidence that you intended to harm this person. Witnesses might be asked 'did he shout "I'm going to put you in the pit"' as he dragged him out the back door.

The cops might drag out some charge to placate the victim/family, but from your story they would be hard pressed to proved beyond reasonable doubt (99%) that you did some crime. That's still a massive pain in the neck, preparing to defend a charge, the police later drop. Or indeed going to a hearing and being acquitted.

Civil issues... According to your story to the best of your knowledge you put him out the back door, thru this other door and left him to walk round the front to his car. You had no knowledge there was a freshly dug well or pit which he then fell into.

The problem is civil issues must be proved to "the balance of probabilities"...51%...

A much lower bar to prove. The possibility of you not knowing would be a central point.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

 

[Reuben James]

Very helpful information, thank you.

Regards

 

[Gorodetsky]

Hey man,

It isn't a great hypothetical position to be in.

On the gold coast, some dude was recently acquitted for murder for putting a young lady on a balcony...under similar circumstances.

You know the case I'm talking about.

Regards