SA What if the police lie as an excuse to harass you?

Well isn't it good that Sammy is here. Now both of you go sit on a naughty chair and have a long hard think.

Naughty Tim - Very rude... Go to your room.

Glass - reading sometimes means it isn't that easy to pick up on nuances in meaning. My first thought was that you were genuine (maybe you were) in referencing the American legal system where in theory they have to show 'probable cause' which is the 4th amendment . So just like our system the American legal system (in theory) needs the cops to have grounds for suspicion and generally that is how the law is applied. The cops are not (generally) randomly search every punter they walk past in the street.

so before you get off the naughty chair I want you both to look at the events below and decide which country they happened in - AU or USA

1. Woman calls the police because she thought she heard another woman scream for help. When police arrive they shoot and kill the woman that called them.
2. Girls under the age of 18 strip searched at music festival
3. A young boy with dark skin is impalled on a school fence. He dies. He was being chased by the police. The police later concede they had no reason to be chasing him other than they wanted to have a chat.
4. 4 police officers are filmed beating a young man with dark skin. They are later charged but found innocent.
5. black men's life expectancy is 5 years less than white men
6. black men's life expectancy is 7 years less than white men
7 black people represent 12% of the population but 33% of the population in jail
8. Black people represent only 3% of the total population, yet more than 28% of the prison population


The problem here isn't with the law. It is with police training, where individuals all of a sudden believe they have super powers when they wear the colour blue.

Now if you two can't play nice there will be no dessert tonight. Have I made myself clear?

I was being essentially genuine in everything I wrote to Tim, Sammy. The only tongue in cheek part was my last post where I was trying to understand his reply and paraphrased it with a bit of humour (including with a to ensure he could tell it was intended to be humorous) before he got uber condescending and told me to shut up while the adults were talking.

I don't claim to know the precise law on this. I only know what seems morally right and morally wrong. And yes, I know cops can be badly trained and drunk with power in any country. And I'm pretty sure the majority of your examples were in the US. Yeah, police are corrupt there too.

In fact I suspect the job actually encourages it in many people. But that's precisely WHY there needs to be laws that restrict what police can do and how they do it, because if there's not, police will tend to overstep and take short cuts to make THEIR job easier at the expense of the liberty of the public. I know the police are not generally randomly searching people on the street in Australia. But is it because they're legally not allowed to, or is it because they have better things to do with their time, plus it'd be a PA nightmare unless there was obviously a crime epidemic? I'd say probably the latter is right. And I think this assumption that the police aren't going to harass you is all well and good until one day they do, and you don't have any legal protections against it.

My other issue with what Tim was implying (since he wasn't very forthcoming with detail) was that it seemed like police could lie about a suspicion in order to get the public's cooperation. Like the example I gave that a cop could say "get in the car, we just want to help you" and then start interrogating the person, knowing they can't get out while the car is moving... I know this kind of thing may not happen OFTEN, but I'm certain it happens. And it shouldn't IMO. Police should never lie to manipulate the public, even if they think someone may have committed a crime. Call my idealistic.

If my understanding of what Tim was saying is correct, that police can pretty much make you do whatever they want if they can justify it as investigating a suspicion (which they probably don't have to prove or explain, certainly not at the time but maybe eventually in a court of law), then I'm not impressed. The whole "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide" mentality is very short-sighted IMO. Police have a vital job to do, sure, but they are public servants. That is something that I think many police fail to remember, both in the US and Australia.

You're idealistic.
The 8 examples - 4 from usa, 4 from here.

GlassHalfFull said:

...If my understanding of what Tim was saying is correct...

Click to expand...

It wasn't.
But, as a baseless construct in your own head, it's beyond correction.

Tim - back to your room.... and stay there until you can be nice.

Glasshalffull.... There is this thing called common sense. Yup the cops have pretty wide reaching powers.

So in the example I gave of a 16 year old girl being strip searched. IT WAS IN AUSTRALIA.
Police strip-searched 16-year-old girl at Splendour music festival, inquiry hears
So sniffer dog gave the cops grounds for suspicion (kinda - because guess what, sniffer dogs are not as good at their job as you might think)
BUT - to search a minor parental consent must be sought... IT WASNT... 143 strip searches done at this event and only 13 or 14 found to be concelling drugs. Almost all of those searches were legal. A small hand full were not because of the age of the person being searched.... APPALLING to think about 130 people were not just searched - but strip searched due to police 'suspicions' that they were concealling drugs...

The cops that searched 16 year old kids should be in trouble because of the age of the kids (they wont be - keep reading) But the 130 odd other strip searches that found nothing ALL LEGAL...
But the search of minors - happened... Graphically
Read this Questions over NSW government decision to let police watchdog go during strip-search inquiry
This is shocking "In one case, a 15-year-old boy said he “shook with nerves” after a police officer told him to “hold your dick and lift your balls up and show me your gooch” during a search at an under-18s music festival in February last year."

At an under 18 music event... One should assume all punters would be under 18 so none of them should have been strip searched. A 15 year old boy spoken to in such a derogatory manner.... AND the ' government inquiry' has been cut short... Read between the lines - the government has realised how embarassing this is (as opposed to the embarassment the kids must have felt) so unlike their strip searches that clearly were extensive - the inquiry into police practice has been cut short, to save the govt embarassment...

Hey Tim.... You may want to consider the possibility that your own words say more about you than 'glass' ever could.

As for police getting it wrong & not being held to proper account for it.... Yep it happens, often. Always will I'd say.. Doe's it stink? You bet.. Chances of it changing any time soon. Pretty slim..

Tim W said:

It wasn't.
But, as a baseless construct in your own head, it's beyond correction.

Click to expand...

Then I suggest that you're a pretty s**t lawyer if you're incapable of correcting an earnest misunderstanding. Thing is, I don't think you can't. You just think you're so far above us plebs that we don't deserve to be endowed with your enlightenment... Sad, really.

naughty chair.....
So the thread is called -"What if the police lie as an excuse to harass you" Can you lot stay on task?

the answer is even if the cops break the law -as in strip searching minors..... very little will happen to the cops... in fact the NSW police minister endorses strip searching kids as young as 12. Despite the fact that in 63% of cases NOTHING was found...
NSW police minister defends strip-searching of children, saying parents would be 'happy'

So case closed. In nsw at least cops can search you... NOPE strip search you, make you bend over etc etc.... APPALLING and even though it is illegal the boss of police endorses the practice. APPALLING

Oh I tried. I think we've got about as much as we can out of Tim here. I just wanted to tell him what I thought of his attitude before I bowed out. The law's protection for you against the police sucks, the police's interpretation of the law sucks. We get it.

I've met a couple of cops over the years who were a complete disgrace to their uniform and job. Serve and protect be buggered.